MadPriest Thought For The Day
It's all about grace
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
"You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’”
He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.”
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
Jesus met many rich people in his ministry. He healed them. Some (like Mary Magdalene) became his disciples. Yet, as far as we know he didn't take them to task over their wealth in the same way that he spoke to the rich young man in this famous story.
I think Jesus said what he said because the young man was self-righteous. Not in a pompous way, not even in arrogant way, simply in a self-confident way. The young man was certain he knew what, according to the Law, was right and what was wrong. I have a feeling the young man would have pointed out to others what they were doing wrong under the Law.
Jesus doesn't correct the young man, he doesn't tell him that his knowledge of the Law is wrongheaded. Jesus, simply ups the stakes to a point of self-sacrifice that is above what the young man is prepared to make.
I happen to believe that this story does indicate that wealthy people have a more difficult time living a righteous life than poor people because the aquisition of wealth is so often a sinful operation and the possesion of wealth allows a person more opportunity to sin - as long as there are poor in the world this will always be the case, to indulge yourself while others starve is a sin that most of us commit everyday.
However, I believe there is an even more important message in this story. No matter how good you try to be there is always something in what you do or believe that will count against you at the time of judgement. Therefore, you cannot escape being hypocritical if you judge other people, and being hypocritical is one of the big "no-nos" in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Of course, it's all about grace and this is proved with Christ's final comment on the matter:
They were greatly astounded and said to one another, “Then who can be saved?”
Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.”
We are all very keen to rely on God's grace for our own salvation. But we are often very reluctant to truly allow its operation in the lives of those we believe to be less lawful than ourselves.
70 comments:
Madpriest,
You've made a really good point. I think there's this temptation too for all of us to get caught up into materialism, and to trust in the security of riches, and material things, rather than in the Lord.
And, the truth is we all fall miserably short, and need to be reminded to hope only in the cross of Christ to put us right with God.
I love the words of that old hymn,
"Nothing in my hand I bring, only to your cross I cling."
And, we all need to pray that we will honor, and serve the Lord with our possessions.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for posting this wonderful story, and for your interpretation.
The rich fellow in the painting looks a bit like Frodo Baggins, by the way. :)
Since we're doing "what Jesus said", here's my word from the Lord for the day:
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax-collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, “God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax-collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.” But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner!” I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14
The admonition to humble oneself is hard, very hard to put into practice. Lord, have mercy.
But I do need to offer one word of caution.
Grace is about God's unconditional love, about the forgiveness of my sins (which, God knows, are many), and about bearing with one another as God bears with us.
However, in many people's minds 'God forgives our sins gladly' seems to slide effortlessly into 'this is not a sin'. So we may be having a discussion about whether or not a particular act is in fact a sin, and someone will say, 'But the Gospel tells us that Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous' - which, of course, is absolutely true, but not the discussion we were having. The issue was not 'Does God forgive sins or not?" but 'Is this particular act or attitude of mine a candidate for his forgiveness, or not?' The two issues should not be confused.
I haven't said anything is a sin or not a sin. I said there are times when a person is not qualified, because of distance, to voice an opinion on certain matters. I think you will find it was Grace, the evangelical, who wanted to turn it into a discussion about whether or not it was a sin. My piece this morning was not about sin and wealth (Grace) but about concentrating on getting yourself right with God before you start quoting The Law to everybody else.
Ok, I'm feeling confused. As an evangelical Lutheran Christian, I feel there is nothing I can do to get myself right with God. I fall short everyday.
No one can keep the law. The commandments are like a school master to lead us to Christ in my thinking.
I think I'm put right with God based on the work of the cross which I accept by repentant faith.
If speaking into someone's life, or discerning whether actions are right or wrong in general was dependent on my own personal perfection in following Jesus and human efforts, I would never open my mouth to say anything even about social injustice or homophobia, or any thing, MP.
Do you see what I'm saying? Where's the balance here? And, is there a difference between disagreeing and expressing concern relating to someone's moral choice, and just rejecting and condemning them as a person?
It's because we do care that there's a time for us to
open our mouth. I think it depends on the situation,IMO.
Ok, I'm feeling confused. As an evangelical Lutheran Christian, I feel there is nothing I can do to get myself right with God. I fall short everyday.
No one can keep the law. The commandments are like a school master to lead us to Christ in my thinking.
I think I'm put right with God based on the work of the cross which I accept by repentant faith.
If speaking into someone's life, or discerning whether actions are right or wrong in general was dependent on my own personal perfection in following Jesus and human efforts, I would never open my mouth to say anything even about social injustice or homophobia, or any thing, MP.
Do you see what I'm saying? Where's the balance here? And, is there a difference between disagreeing and expressing concern relating to someone's moral choice, and just rejecting and condemning them as a person?
It's because we do care that there's a time for us to
open our mouth. I think it depends on the situation,IMO.
However, in many people's minds 'God forgives our sins gladly' seems to slide effortlessly into 'this is not a sin'.
Tim, I'm not sure whom you are speaking of when you say "in many people's minds". In my experience, and I am not a pastor, I find that sincere people, those who are serious about living a Christian life, tend to be hard on themselves and need convincing of God's forgiveness.
Poverty, injustice, homophobia, racism - these are caused by the powers and dominions we should fight against. Personal sins such as prostitution and theft are caused, in the main part by the actions of the powers and dominions. That's why this blog attacks only the representatives of the powers and dominions and not individuals who are often more powerless than the visitors to this site.
I am not a saint, but I have noticed that saints tend not to go on about other people's sins but tend (like Francis) to attack the poverty and injustice that causes sins. In other words they get their priorities right. Francis emptied himself of all conceit and became holy, but in his holiness there was never arrogance.
MadPriest, my friend, I hate to get all theological on you, but in New Testament terms, as you well know, you are a saint. It's only Christendom and the Italian Church that's robbed you of your right to call yourself a saint.
MP, Jesus seems to have a different view from you about where those 'personal' sins come from - see Mark 7:14-23.
It seems to me that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus spends a lot of time addressing not just social evils but personal holiness as well. I think responsible pastors have a responsibility to talk about everything that Jesus talked about. But I agree with you MP that it's not about 'attacking' anyone (least of all, those who are already doing a good job of beating up on themselves); it's about promoting love, truth, and holiness.
I think the rich man came to Jesus with the idea that he would get praise - like that student in class who asks a question but really means to show of his/her knowledge. What a shock for him to find out that he did not know the answer after all. We used to play a game in seminary called "annoying person bingo" - if someone did the above -you could check off a square. Other acts were - trying to "one up" the professor in the guise of a question, talking all the time with nothing to say, -- you get the idea and I am sure can think of more.
I think there's way too much focus within certain strands of Christianity on what is wrong with us and how we don't measure up to God's standards, and how gosh-darn lucky we are that God accepts us anyway. This kind of negativity is wholly unattractive to me. Jesus said we are to love others as we love ourselves--and it is pretty hard to love ourselves if we are engaging in this kind of self-flagellation. That doesn't mean that we should not all strive to do better, that we should not recognize that we are not perfect and that we often fail to do the right thing. But the focus within much of Christianity seems to be way too much on how terribly inadequate we are, and I just have little use for that. I would rather be constructive and focus on how we can be better, rather than focus on how inadequate and flawed we are.
Tim
You are still adding to what I have said.
Of course, I encourage people to live a holy life but I do that by stressing positives not negatives. I may denounce capitalism from the pulpit but I would never denounce cohabitation from the pulpit although I think marriage (which should be available to all) is a better way. I hate evil and fight it. Huffing and puffing about slight naughtiness, I leave to the evangelicals because they have a longer list than I do and much more experience in the field.
Yes, saint, all right I'll give you that, although I do tend to see myself as a soldier of Christ so I can get out of all the holiness stuff - especially that being quiet business - oh, how I hate being quiet.
Mystical Seeker, you are very English in your heresy and will find no argument in me. Have you read "Original Blessing" by Matthew Fox? (oh no, the ground's opening up and I'm being swallowed).
And the legend of when St. MadPriest was swallowed up by the earth began and serves as a reminder to all naughty, heretical children to this day.
Back to the topic at hand. It is ALL about grace. It takes a great deal of grace to allow other people the dignity of living their lives and allowing them to learn what they need to learn while we and they muck around here on earth. When we attempt to serve as the micro-manager of everybody's morality, the only thing others learn is that they hate to be micro-managed.
I work with students with dyslexia. Even more than hating working on literacy skills, they HATE to make reading and spelling mistakes. However, it's when those mistakes happen that I have my greatest opportunity to impart some great, important kernel of knowledge for which they are always grateful (Okay, I made that las part up.). Students often point out that they have their own way of mastering the skills, and of course, I can't resist asking, "How's that working out for ya?" While I wish I could break their wills and produce little decoding and encoding automatons, that's not possible, nor desirable. It is through repeated experience of "stumbling" versus taking positive action and applying strategies that the light bulb clicks on and the internal motivation kicks in, requiring much less work on my part.
I believe that It is through the Spirit's use of my moral failures that I've become any earthly good and am able to see people for who they are WHERE they are on their particular faith journey. Who am I to attempt to protect everybody else from the same blessing?
KJ, amen.
Ann - heh-heh, students are the same the world over, no matter the profession. I teach medical students, and yes, we could play annoying student bingo.
It is entirely possible that this particular passage had some voice tone or body language in the early retellings, since the early Christians were not 100% literate, and much of the very earliest evangelism had to be recited as stories/episodes.
We don't have those original interpretive cues. Was the rich young man boastful? A worrywart? Oblivious and lacking in empathy?
Our church had some fun study classes where we took passages and tried to inhabit our assigned "character" and make up a backstory for him/her and get together and act out the story in class and talk about why we chose our interpretation of our character, other possible interpretations of the character, and about interactions between characters.
Not a scholarly approach, but certainly one that demonstrated that different people could get different interpretations, and got one out of the rut of just reading for the nth time a familiar passage and into actually thinking about it in new ways.
NancyP
So as long as I just stick to preaching the Sermon on the Mount, can I be excused from the charge of 'huffing and puffing about naughtiness'?
Honestly, is this a generational thing? Whenever baby boomers hear pastors talking about practical Christian living they seem to immediately leap to the conclusion that we're judging and excluding people. Generation 'Y'ers (my kids' generation) don't seem to have the same problem, in my experience. They seem to be hungry for guidance about the business of daily living, and happy to find someone who will help them think it through.
Tim, discrimination, discrimination! What about the elders in your congregation? What's their reaction?
You're right Tim and I despair of the youth of today. Consumerism and pressure to achieve has turned them into a generation of zombies (hence the rise in evangelicalism and other fundementalisms). "Get them to think it through?" Getting them to think anything for themselves is almost impossible - I think it's because of the way they have to learn so much by rote in order to pass exams. When they get to uni they have no idea how to research and have to have everything photocopied and handed to them after the lectures. They want their religion that way as well. Luckily for them there are plenty of older guardians of morality and true faith who are waiting in the bushes for them to pass their way.
I think that there's a division in the church concerning some of these things that really shouldn't be. To me, there is a legitimate concern about just having this judgemental, uncaring, legalistic attitute, or in being only concerned about personal morality, and not about social justice, helping people in poverty for example.
But, IMO, we need a balance. God really does call us to personal holiness of life, and things like sexual immorality, addiction to pornography, or alcohol abuse can cause real harm to people, and to their Christian witness, and to the testimony of the church.
I think as a fellowship of Christian believers there are times to speak into each other's lives, and support folks who may be dealing with various issues.
For me, it's helpful to be honest, and confess" Hey, I'm struggling to, and don't have it altogether," to be vulnerable. That way the person doesn't just feel condemned or talked down too.
God wants us to care for one another.
And, I might add, to cheer each other on in the faith.
Very interesting discussion.
I'm in agreement with Mystical on this. I don't believe people are inherently sinful - I believe they have the capacity to be infinitely sinful. We need to be directed to the light, to find what it good in ourselves and to keep expanding that.
We'll always be imperfect. God knows this. Through grace, we are loved anyway.
This doesn't make sin negligible, but, ti does make it able to be overcome one step at a time.
You're right, Grace, and a role of the church should be to support others with their stuggles. But, someone coming to me seeking advice and support is one thing; except when danger to self or others is involved (e.g., God has told me to paint satanic symbols on the church doors), jumping in and "micro-managing" the lives of others to the glory of God is quite another.
I don't think that holiness is externally applied; that's "works" in order to keep God happy with me. Isn't holiness the process of the Spirit expressing itself through us?
My grandfather was a pastor in the Nazarene church which, in its Wesleyan heritage, emphasizes holiness as an act of the Spirit. However, it was, in part, the hypocrisy of the "external" holiness that ultimately caused my grandfather to leave that church, and for much of his adult years, his faith.
Old joke: Why do Nazarenes forbid pre-marital sex?
Answer: They're afraid that it will lead to dancing.
God really does call us to personal holiness of life, and things like sexual immorality, addiction to pornography, or alcohol abuse can cause real harm to people....
Grace, it seems to me that most of us who hang out here know that and agree with that statement.
Who among us would say that we are not called to a life of holiness? Who among us would say that "sexual immorality, addiction to pornography, or alcohol abuse" are good"?
Forgive me, Grace, but in much of what you say here, you sound as if you're preaching to an audience who knows very little about Christianity, you know, extremely elementary stuff. You seem to plow the same ground, time after time, as though we don't "get" it. What is it that we lack that causes you to do this?
KJ, you can take the boy out of the Nazarene Church, but you cannot take the Nazarene Church out of the boy. ;o)
There. I've been waiting for a long time to use that. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
Grandmére, I'm fond of saying, "You can take the boy out of the evangelical, but you can't take the evangel out of the boy."
Holy crap, MP, talk about a put down of today's generation! I'm proud to say that my kids do not fit in with your stereotype, and neither do the youth I know in the Diocese of Edmonton - they refuse to allow other people to do their thinking for them. And just because people believe an evangelical version of Christianity doesn't mean they haven't thought things through for themselves. That's a pretty arrogant view!
And as for 'evangelicalism and other fundamentalisms' and their association with zombies - right, see something you don't agree with, throw Jack Spong's favourite 'f'-word at it. Talk about 'the neighbourhood of radical inclusion'.
KJ, your statement fits your personal description better than mine. I just wanted to say it.
Mimi,
I'm not speaking to anyone person in particular here, or trying to put people down. But, I was speaking of my experience in the church in general, in both progressive and more conservative settings. Truly, this isn't personally directed at you at all.
Often one setting will emphasize personal morality over concerns for social justice, and vice versa. And, I'm sharing my opinion that we need to find a balance overall in the church.
Oh, KJ, I agree that holiness is an internal thing that shows itself externally. Maybe this isn't even the best word. Would "manner of life" be better.?Plus, I agree we need not to micro manage or jump into each other's lives unasked for the slightest little thing.
Plus, how can I explain, you know it's not about keeping God happy, IMO, but wanting to live for Him out of love, and as an evidence of the "fruits of the spirit." I'm sure you know this, and would agree.
I've certainly seen where all this can turn to harmful legalism, and that's wrong. But, then I've been in these Christian settings that are almost antimonian, "Like hey, it's ok to go out and get high out of our minds, because where" sin is, grace abounds."
Or it's ok to have casual sex with a friend I've just met because it's consensual, and for us it's a "healing experience."
Also, I want to add. We need to stress the positive. I agree with MP in that. It's about what we are doing for the Lord, and who we are in Him, not just avoiding certain major sins or something. :)
Would you agree, KJ?
Back to talk later, Eileen, I hope. Have to run for my work duties.
Mimi,
I'm not speaking to anyone person in particular here, or trying to put people down. But, I was speaking of my experience in the church in general, in both progressive and more conservative settings. Truly, this isn't personally directed at you at all.
Often one setting will emphasize personal morality over concerns for social justice, and vice versa. And, I'm sharing my opinion that we need to find a balance overall in the church.
Oh, KJ, I agree that holiness is an internal thing that shows itself externally. Maybe this isn't even the best word. Would "manner of life" be better.?Plus, I agree we need not to micro manage or jump into each other's lives unasked for the slightest little thing.
Plus, how can I explain, you know it's not about keeping God happy, IMO, but wanting to live for Him out of love, and as an evidence of the "fruits of the spirit." I'm sure you know this, and would agree.
I've certainly seen where all this can turn to harmful legalism, and that's wrong. But, then I've been in these Christian settings that are almost antimonian, "Like hey, it's ok to go out and get high out of our minds, because where" sin is, grace abounds."
Or it's ok to have casual sex with a friend I've just met because it's consensual, and for us it's a "healing experience."
Also, I want to add. We need to stress the positive. I agree with MP in that. It's about what we are doing for the Lord, and who we are in Him, not just avoiding certain major sins or something. :)
Would you agree, KJ?
Back to talk later, Eileen, I hope. Have to run for my work duties.
Sorry Tim, but I was taking the piss out of you. The giveaway is when I start exagerating.
Where does God call us to a holiness of life where holiness is defined by morality. As far as I can work out God calls us to a holiness of non-judgementalism, non-hypocrisy, generosity, being nice to people, that sort of stuff. I really don't think he mentions many specifics, certainly not in the main thrust of his argument.
Grace, for the umpteenth time, I am not taking what you say personally.
You don't answer my final question. Why do you think that you need to preach basic Christianity to us over and over?
Tim, I once couldn't stand my brother-in-law until I learned to pay attention to only about 15% of the things he says. Now, I like him just fine.
Just thought you might find that to be helpful.
Grace, given the current state of ecclesiastical affairs, the words "manner of life" might not be a good choice. :-)
Grace said "...Or it's ok to have casual sex with a friend I've just met because it's consensual, and for us it's a 'healing experience.'"
I have hung out with believers and non-believers of all stripes, and I've never heard anyone (other than right-wing politicians trying to stick it to the 'moral relativists') utter a sentence like that one.
I think life is generally more complicated than that.
"But, then I've been in these Christian settings that are almost antimonian, "Like hey, it's ok to go out and get high out of our minds, because where" sin is, grace abounds."
Or it's ok to have casual sex with a friend I've just met because it's consensual, and for us it's a "healing experience."
Goodness! I must be hanging out in entirely the wrong Christian settings, because I've never heard anything even remotely like this in my exclusively liberal Christian upbringing.
Maybe I just run with the wrong crowd (monogamous homo and hetero friends). Seems I'm missing all the fun. ;)
Suzer, I guess we don't get out enough, because I've never heard that either.
Nothing like that this side of the Atlantic either, Suzer. Have you tried French speaking Canada?
Mimi,
It's because I don't see myself as preaching. I'm just sharing all my experience and opinions. Maybe my memory is fading, it could be folks, menopause and all that :(.. But, I don't remember having this particular discussion before.
I share and talk like this with other friends, and my husband all the time. It seems normal to me, and no one bats an eye. We share opinions and ideas, our convictions back and forth.
Are you all feeling ok with this, though??
Sure Grandmére, whatever you say. We all believe you.
(Eyes batting) Grace, I'm fine, really. Not sure I'm down with everthing you say, but fine, really.
Are you feeling OK with this?
Well...I love Jesus and everything, but I'm not giving up casual sex.
It's my lifeline...
MP -- I'll have to try that. My French isn't very good, but the Canadians pronounce it funny anyway, so maybe I can get away with it. I do remember some of my college French, especially the wicked phrases I tried to learn that weren't in the coursebook. Maybe I'll get somewhere with those.
Our dear Grace -- I think I'm feeling ok with this, but am actually not quite sure anymore what that "this" your question is referring back to! But I'll just say I'm o.k. with it so as not to rock the boat. Oy. :)
I've tried to stay out of this one, today. Especially since Grace and I are operating under a truce agreement negotiated over at Fr Jake's, as it were ;)
BUT, I have to say, if we are going to have this conversation, that to me it is the progressives who seem more willing to work at understanding God's grace - it is the progressives who aren't preaching what Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." To many progressives God's grace to us demands our own hard work at the radical acceptance of others. We heed that parable about the servant unwilling to offer the very forgiveness given to him.
Sometimes I wonder if the conservatives in the church harp so much on the individual aspect of God's call to our lives because the social aspect is so scary. Think of the passage in Matthew where Jesus says that he won't recognize those who preach in his name and heal and perform miracles in his name, but he will recognize those who visit the sick and needy and feed the poor and visit prisoners. WOW! Does Jesus know what he is talking about here? He sounds like one of those awful social gospel liberals. He needs to watch it or certain bishops of this church might decide that he is too progressive and social-gospel minded to be an Anglican. We gotta protect the doctrine, you know?
Thank you dennis.
And I promise there will be no truces here as long as we all keep it, at least slightly, amusing.
well I certainly try at the amusing part. At least I keep myself amused. No other promises made, though.
This has been the most riotously hilarious day that I have ever had at MadPriest's place. Had to run to the bathroom more than once, more than twice. I suppose y'all really didn't need to know that part.
Grandmere Mimi:
Too much Franzia California Blush Rose' while blogging will do that.
not suggesting anything, of course.
TMI, ma chere! But I must say, traffic certainly has been picking up.
NancyP
TMI. Trainable Mentally Impaired?
No, Nancy, the kick-ass patholigist, I know better, although it's a pretty good fit sometimes, except for the trainable part.
Heh-heh, KJ, you're cracking me up today!
Did you hear the one about how the the Jews don't recognize Muslims, the Muslims don't recognize Christians, and the Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store? heheheheh
Sometimes there is a certain holier than thou attitude when it comes to holiness!
And I agree with Dennis, too, who said Sometimes I wonder if the conservatives in the church harp so much on the individual aspect of God's call to our lives because the social aspect is so scary.
Jesus was radical, revolutionary.
Great, Mimi,
Actually, Suzer, I almost forgot my own train of thought. (LOL)
Well, MP, I think everything you mentioned is important. But, I was also thinking of Scripture like in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4.
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, that he may have something to share with those in need...
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you....
Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love...
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity....
I'm truly feeling that it's not either or, but both.
Dennis, God does care about social and corporate justice as well. I can totally agree. I think if any conservative in the church does not recognize this, they're not really being faithful in walking out all the implications of the gospel.
PJ, unfortunately, I've been relating some situations, well, that I know personally are true. I was present when some of this was happening and being shared. It surely is not giving honor to Jesus, or to the witness of the church.
Among other things, I really feel that there is a real culture of things like "alcohol abuse," in some parts of the TEC, and ELCA, even among some of the clergy and seminarians. But, I don't think that it is always relating to a progressive vs. conservative divide.
Eileen, how did you come to the conviction that people are not inherently fallen? What leads you to think in this way?
I believe that the Jewish culture was a shame culture. Shame was used as a manipulative force, and also to help to explain why the unexplainable was happening (ie drought or physical illness were due to sin). I think this eventually morphed into tribal stories about man and his fallen nature and how life would have been so much easier had that stupid beehotch Eve not encouraged Adam to eat from the tree, realize they were nekkid and hide from God.
I think man has the capacity to sin (to commit harm) infinitely. But, I don't believe man is inherently sinful (evil) - it's something we learn. And, then it's also something we can't even agree on what is really a sin...hence this thread.
KJ - they caught that spray painting satanic symbols guy
Grace - I was in a Bible study with Lutherans (I think you said you are Lutheran) and we had the sin and grace discussion every week. They told me that Lutherans are the church of Lent and Episcopalians are the church of Christmas. When I was a supply pastor for the ELCA congregation I noticed that there was much more emphasis on sin so one can experience grace whereas TEC tends to emphasize incarnation and the goodness of creation with sin as times of separation from self, others and God. The placement of the Confession in the beginning of the liturgy for Lutherans and in the middle, just before communion for TEC shows the difference. You are right about the need for balance by listening to one another IMO.
Yeah, if it weren't for "that stupid beehotch Eve" we'd all be living in the lap of luxury, the Garden, yet.
I'm rolling on the floor!
I think we have the capacity for so much good and ill. We don't hit the mark every time, or sometimes, at all.
Lord, deliver me from (committing) evil. And protect me from it. Amen.
I think Eileen has it right. We are all capable of "sin" (however you define that term), but the negativity implied in claiming that we are all "fallen" is really unfortunate, in my view.
Mad Priest, I think I've read part of the Fox book you mention, although I have found his books a little difficult for me to finish. I might point out that he is not British.
I understand, but I"m looking at "falleness" not so much as shame, but a tendency to fall short, and to go our own way, rather than God's way, or a kind of brokeness. (Of course, I think the paradox is that we are also fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God.)
I've found in my own personal life, despite my best intentions, I don't really love God with my whole heart, or my neighbor as myself. I can hurt people that I care about the most, even without trying at times, and that all my best motives are mixed.
To me, a huge part of our faith, is that in Christ, through some mystical sense in sharing in His death and resurrection, we can be radically changed, and able to share in the life of God. We're being made like Him.(Jesus)
I understand, but I"m looking at "falleness" not so much as shame, but a tendency to fall short, and to go our own way, rather than God's way, or a kind of brokeness. (Of course, I think the paradox is that we are also fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God.)
I've found in my own personal life, despite my best intentions, I don't really love God with my whole heart, or my neighbor as myself. I can hurt people that I care about the most, even without trying at times, and that all my best motives are mixed.
To me, a huge part of our faith, is that in Christ, through some mystical sense in sharing in His death and resurrection, we can be radically changed, and able to share in the life of God. We're being made like Him.(Jesus)
Grace. I think I may be able to help you you with your burden here. What I am going to say to you is absolutely orthodox in all denominations. It is not even open for discussion. If you don't believe this you are not a Christian.
When Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father everything was radically changed - everything. This change can not be refused or altered.
Through baptism we are born again of water and Spirit and so become enabled to proclaim that radical change in our words and our actions. We can, however, refuse to take advantage of this gift, though it will never leave us.
Everything that has life has always shared in the life of God because the breath of God is in everything that has life. It doesn't what you believe or don't believe, whether you're a human or an animal, you share in the life of God. No matter how evil you are you are still part of God's existence which is why he loves everything.
Yes, we become more like Jesus, but that is not very important. What is important is that Jesus became us and in dying like we die formed that link through which we become one with him. Don't try and be like Jesus but live your life in the belief that Jesus is one with you - then, if your thankfulness is honest you will become like him without conciously trying. But you do not have to get to a certain level of Christlikeness, you certainly don't have to become equal to Christ. Just relax and enjoy God and he'll sort the rest out.
The people who visit this blog are relaxed in their love of God. They are relaxed because they actually understand what grace is all about.
You see, for an Anglican, I'm an excellent Lutheran, but that's because Luther was an excellent catholic.
Yes. What Ann+ and MP said.
They said it better then me, and didn't resort to calling Eve a beehotch.
Wow, Maddie, that was beautiful. I think I'll lift it.
But Eileen, what you spoke was truth, too, in the vernacular that expresses, what a lot of people think, unforntunately.
Say, are we getting all meditative or something?
I took one of those quizzes that are supposed to tell you what kind of Christian you are, and came up with a three-way split, with Catholic slightly in the lead, followed by progressive and charismatic. Hmmm. Saint Pat the schizo.
MP, have you heard of the teaching ministry of Malcolm Smith? He is an Episcopal priest who shares so strongly this message of our unity with Christ. I think this man comes originally from England or Ireland.
It is so absolutely true that we can not live the Christian life in our own strength, but that Jesus lives His life through us and in us. We need to relax, and realize our oneness with Him. But, I confess that it's easy to forget this at times, so I appreciate your sharing very much. We all need to remind each other. It's easy to get caught up in a kind of "works righteousness."
I'm just thinking of this awesome Scripture in Col.3:1-4.
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God ...For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
God bless, MP.
Probably came up slightly more Catholic because of my insistence on Communion and liturgy!
MadPriest, that was really lovely. Thank you.
I'm a heretic Pat, but, I love liturgy. I'm a flexible traditionalist. 90% of the time I prefer the traditional liturgy, but I am open to flexible forms as well, from time to time. I will admit, that some inclusive re-workings of certain traditoinal prayers stike a cord with me, but, on the whole, I love traditional liturgy. And communion is a must - every week. (That's the Roman Catholic in me coming out.)
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