creating a rumpus
From EKKLESIA:
A group of leading scientifically and theologically qualified scholars has issued a clear rebuttal of the 'intelligent design' ideology that has gained ground among conservative religious believers, especially in the USA, in recent years. The International Society for Science and Religion (ISSR) in Cambridge notes that "there has been much interest in the view that our current scientific understanding of evolution is incoherent. According to this view, certain biological features, because they appear to be 'irreducibly complex', could not have evolved by natural selection and therefore must have been created by the intervention of an 'intelligent designer'."
ISSR adds: "This view has been challenged, not only by atheists such a Richard Dawkins, but also by religious believers. Among these are many members of the International Society for Science and Religion (ISSR), the world’s foremost scholarly organization devoted to the dialogue between science and religion."
The concept of intelligent design is, says the report, “neither sound science nor good theology.” The authors do not attempt to specify precisely how they believe the religious believer can speak of God’s action as creator – a question on which they may differ among themselves. They are united, however, in resisting what they call “the insistence of intelligent-design advocates that their enterprise be taken as genuine science – just as we oppose the efforts of others to elevate science into a comprehensive world view (so-called scientism).”
COMMENT: I am not a creationist in the sense that this word is now understood, especially in America. I do not believe the world began 4000 years ago. I do not believe the two creation myths in Genesis to be true literally, as a whole or in part. I do not believe that dinosaurs shared our planet with the first humans. I do not believe people have the right to believe any of this without being regarded as incredibly ignorant and uninformed.
I do believe that scientists have got the chronology of the history of the earth and its inhabitants right, although there is much that still needs filling in, not least, the exact history of the human race.
However, I believe that God creates. I believe there was a major creation event followed by many lesser creation events. I believe that the universe would cease to be without God's continuing observation of it. Although I am not happy to be tarred with the same brush of creationist intelligent design I do believe, 100%, in intelligent design. In other words, I do not believe God just started the ball rolling. I believe he is constantly involved in his creation and the "evolution" of his creation.
I am sure that the theory of evolution will turn out to be, basically, correct, especially in respect of the chronology and the fact that all creatures are linked back to the first appearance of life on this planet. But I think scientists have accepted it as a complete and proved theory when there are obvious gaps in it and problems with the logical consistency of it. I think scientists are scared of one question having more than one answer. Of course, a million or so bacteria stuck in a small space will mutate. Of course, a few finches that find their way to a remote island will, in time, end up looking very similar because of interbreeding (see also - West Virginia). But that doesn't mean that you can automatically apply this truth to all aspects of evolution.
To me, the mathematics of natural selection just do not add up, even taking into account the vast periods of time involved (and, in fact, evolution of species appear to happen within very small time scales). I cannot, for example, see how fish that don't breathe air can evolve into fish that do breathe air, unless a male fish and a female fish, are both born as mutants with primitive lungs (fully working), at the same time in the same place so that they can mate with each other (and even then it would be unlikely that their offspring would have the same complete mutation). People look at figures like a million or a billion and think they are huge numbers. But they are not. In our universe they are very small numbers, in deed.
It seems to me that evolution as a theory can only be realistic if we accept that there is something going on that has the appearance of intelligence. I choose to call this God but I can't prove it is or even prove that this agency is really intelligent. It may be something more akin to the agency proposed by Gaia theory.
Both creationists and scientists are holding back science and theology because the argument between the two factions has led to both sides taking up rigid doctrines from which they will not shift. I don't give a toss about hardcore creationists because they are just very stupid people. But it annoys me that scientific thinking theologians cannot talk about God's creative action in the world because they will immediately be accused of being scientific Luddites. But the biggest problem this debate has caused is that scientists have become intransigent over the possibility of different and/or many answers to any given scientific question. They have became as guilty of blind stubbornness and lazy thinking as the Biblical fundamentalists who say that if one part of the Bible is wrong then all of it is wrong.
The other week, I was reading an article on quantum mechanics in "The New Scientist" and the author wrote the sentence - "Of course, there can't be anything outside of the universe."
That struck me as a very unscientific thing to say because the writer was putting boundaries on scientific experimentation before such boundaries had been proven beyond reasonable doubt. In the quantum world there is much that is dependent on observation but the mechanics of this does not seem to apply in classical physics. If scientists took theologians and other philosophers more seriously than they do at present they might, at least as a working hypothesis, take on board the possibility of "outside." What if there is something outside of the universe that is providing the function of an observer of the classical universe. It doesn't have to be a god. It doesn't even need to be sentient or intelligent. But, if it is there, we will never discover it scientifically as long as scientists are so intent on defending old theories that they become unable to dream of new ones.
Finally, just as background information. I do not believe you can be a theologian, philosopher or preacher without having as good an understanding of science that it is possible for a layperson to have. I have always taken the attitude that if something is conclusively proved by science then I will believe that in preference to any religious understanding I may have on the matter. If science proved God did not exist (and contrary to Dawkins' undergrad philosophical conclusions it has not yet done so) then I would stop believing in God. I am not saying the reverse should apply to scientists but, at the same time, a real scientist should never create boundaries for their scientific research in the same way philosophers should never be scared into creating boundaries in their thinking.



118 comments:
Does that make God a God of the Gaps?
Given that science explains the How and theology the Why, it wouldn't worry me one little bit if science could provide a seamless and comprehensive chain of proof of evolution.
Fascinating MP. I think that you do a great job of elucidating something that often gets missed in this debate.
Rigid and unyielding thinking and defense.
With all the shouting, the cry and hue it is as each side must line up on opposite ends and hurl words at one another. What horse manure.
As someone with deep faith yet a very curious mind, I am never afraid to poke around my beliefs to examine what will happen.
However, as is often the case - especially in the US and around Christianity, although around other things too - the world is seen through the lens of polarity.
Duality, ambiguity and dynamic thought are seemingly a challenge. After all admission of such notions seems to make the defender of such weak. No we must all be rather defended and not allow one chink of anything through! Ask no questions! Brook no discontent!
Thus we are on yet another idiotic road to right vs. wrong, good vs. bad, and so forth.
The truth and wisdom are often lolling about in the middle.
But, as a good blogfriend of mine is known to say...
OCICBW
Thanks for this post.
No. Quite the opposite. It makes God an integral part of a continuous creation. Those who exclude God from the evolutionary process are making God a god of the gaps.
Excellent precis. I think that in the acceptance and teaching of the Theory of Evolution, the words "Theory of" have become forgotten. It's a good starting point but, as you rightly point out, there are gaps and timelines to be filled in.
Sorry, but no sale here. The search for God's calling card in nature will always end in disappointment, in my opinion. He doesn't let us off that easily.
Since the analogies are rot,
Our senses based belief upon,
We have no means of learning what
Is really going on.
And must put up with having learned
All proofs or disproofs that we tender
Of His existence are returned
Unopened to the sender.
--W.H, Auden
Counterlight
That's contradiction, not argument. And I paid for the full 5 minute argument.
You want an argument?
Just wait til IT wakes up over there in California and sees this.
First contradiction. Now threats. I don't know, Counterlight. I expected more from such a creative person as yourself. Or perhaps your beautiful paintings just evolve by themselves through the accidental mixing of pigment whilst you watch the telly.
Actually, if you read what I wrote you would see that, as usual, I say nothing definite. Everybody else seems to have understood that. I think you just woke up this morning spoiling for a contradiction.
Feeling like there's too many sleeping dogs out here, MP?
I highly recommend a book by Donald Prothero called Evolution, What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters, which has a pretty good chapter on Fish Out of Water, a nice explanation on the nature of science, human evolution, the evolution of whales, and a general overview of the astounding fossil record, which increasingly is filling in the "holes" in the history of life on earth. DNA sequencing has provided further clues.
I'm still trying to wrap my furry little dog brain around your statements that 1) evolutionof species appear to happen within very small time scales and 2) the mathematics of natural selection just do not add up. The mathematics adds up quite nicely, actually.
You also say I have always taken the attitude that if something is conclusively proved by science... well a scientific theory, by it's very nature, is not conclusive proof. It's a framework of hypotheses that explains a large part of nature. Theory of relativity, theory of gravity, theory of evolution. Scientists aren't in the business of proving something finally true, but in creating explanations and then testing the explanation.
Oh oh, gotta run, there's a squeaky toy to chew on.
My particular area of interest is human evolution and the time scale involved is very short. As for the mathematics I have already explained myself in the post and your dna stuff doesn't relate to what I am talking about. There has obviously been evolution. I'm not arguing with that. I'm just saying that the mathematics point to there being SOMETHING else involved other than randomness of mating. And, hey, I'm not saying that is God, I'm just saying it's something. And you can't say in one breath that we are still discovering stuff that makes the theory more certain and in the next breath say the theory is proved. You fundies are all the same!!
I'm still curious, I guess as to what mathematics doesn't fit into a 7 million year time scale? What parts (forget the fish to land animal transition) still elude explanation? What current research is being done in the area where you feel it is incomplete?
Scientific theories are not "proved". They are tested and modified constantly to explain the world through the scientific lens. It does not preclude God being in there, but when you run into sticky areas you are not allowed to just say "Well, then God made the eye, because it's really really complex" (also really really badly designed!).
I didn't say that, Clumber, and you know it. I said there is something missing and that I"M HAPPY to say it might be intelligent or something resembling intelligence. 7 million years is such an incredibly short time - hardly enough to boil a kettle for a cup of coffee.
Personally, I think randomness can account for quite a lot. It's the free will of the universe.
Isn't it true that evolution happens in fits and spurts? Nothing, and then BAM! Sometimes challenges arise in nature and if evolution doesn't happen fast enough extinction is the result.
Now I'm not really contradicting you, just veering off to another vein.
Well, MadPriest, if it's any comfort to you, (I doubt that it is) I believe in some version of intelligent design. I'm not as theologically knowledgeable nor as scientifically knowledgeable as many here, but randomness and adaptation to the environment seem to be less than a total explanation for where we humans are now. The theory of evolution explains much, but not all, of human evolution for me.
However, intelligent design has no place in a science class, for now, because, at this time, there is no scientific method that will get one to that point. It is only the ignorant who call for the teaching of ID in a present day science class. Evolutionary theory is the way to go for now.
Through common sense, I arrive at a belief in some sort of intelligent designer, but that is belief, and I cannot prove that. However, IMHO, certain scientists claim more than they can prove by scientific methods, such as statements like, "There is no God", which they propound despite the fact that no scientific proof of that statement is possible. Yes, there are such critters such as scientific fundamentalists, who overreach in their statements of "facts" and close their minds to possibilities.
If these scientists would open their minds, get out of the boxes they've closed themselves into, and allow their imaginations, especially, to run free, by so doing, they might make further brilliant discoveries.
My two cents, which may be worth even less than that.
No, I agree with you, Missy. That is, in fact, one of the points I am making. Intelligent randomness - very Gaia.
Gosh, Mimi. That was a very lucid argument. But then I expect it's too early for even you to have got through very much swamp moonshine.
MadPriest, I've been reading and enjoying your blog for a number of months and when I read your posts I generally nod my head in agreement, or shake my head in shared bemusement at the crazy goings-on in the Church which you write about. However I've never left a comment, but feel moved to do so here. This is going to be a long comment, I hope you read it and find it worthwhile.
If I can be blunt I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about science here. I'm glad and unsurprised that you are not a mad young earth creationist, but I would like to raise some points about the nature of science.
Science is not a construct where anything is ever "accepted as a complete and proved theory". Any scientist who does this is basically a charlatan. There's no such thing as a "scientific fundamentalist" - a true scientist will always allow his or her theories to be undermined by further scientific findings.
A couple of examples: a scientist would believe that water boils at 100C. That seems like a fact. Then another scientist points out that a different air pressure would change the boiling point of water, so the theory of water boiling is altered accordingly, results are published and peer reviewed, experiments are repeated to ensure that the results can be replicated, and the theory is taken as a solid working theory with the understanding that new findings, or more accurate measurements, could change the theory. And that's good, because this is science and we want to find out more about our wonderful universe, and use our scientific theories to drive more exploration.
Similar things were seen with Newton's theory of gravity. This theory was poked at and tested and supported for many years. But when Einstein suggested his refinements, his ideas were again published, peer reviewed and eventually tested and re-tested and found to be a better understanding of the mechanics of gravity. Even the theory of gravity - you'd think this would be untouchable from a factual standpoint - can be upended due to new scientific findings.
OK, so those are two physics examples. How about evolution? Remember that Darwin wasn't the only person to be working on theories of inheritance. Lamarck was a famous scientist who altered understanding of evolution by suggesting that organisms pass on characteristics which they have acquired during their lifetimes. This was a widely held scientific belief, to the extent that Soviet scientist and agriculturists followed the theory, attempting to breed hardier crops by subjecting them to cold, with the result that the Soviet Union suffered massive crop failures. The point of this example is that Lamarckism was a widely held understanding of evolution which turned out to be basically false, so the theory of evolution was refined accordingly.
We'll come back to evolution in a moment, but in passing I want to address what you said about the "can't be anything outside the universe" statement. I agree, very unscientific, and I'm sure you know that there are theoretical physicists who are examining the many-universes theory - Richard Dawkins mentions this in The God Delusion.
So what about evolution? Why is it picked on more than other scientific theories? It's because there are creation stories in the Bible. I'm sure if there were electricity stories in the Bible we'd be having the same discussions about that. So: for the science, the theory of evolution is broadly agreed upon by scientists, with subtly different interpretations, because the theory has been tested and tested and refined and re-tested and refined and re-tested and can be used as a tool for understanding the way organisms work, with solid predictive results, although where the predictions turn out to be false the scientific community refines the theory accordingly. So for example the theory of evolution can be used to predict where in rock strata you can find certain types of fossils, or even reconstruct the proteins of a bacterium which was around 3.5 million years ago. But here's the thing: the theory is always open to refinement and even negation if the challenge is supported by scientific reasoning. In this way we can see that there are new theories which suggest that virus genetic material may actually become part of the genes of another organism, providing leaps in the host organism's evolution. This is quite a change from the standard understanding of evolution, but because it is a scientific theory, in that it is testable and refutable, it can be accepted by scientists. Saying "I don't understand" or "it doesn't add up" just isn't science, I'm afraid.
One more point/clarification in closing: Dawkins doesn't say that there is no God, just that if you use scientific reasoning it is highly unlikely that there is a god. This means that he uses a scientific method - testability and probability - to suggest that if we accept broadly evolution/natural selection over time, and we also accept that a creator created the universe (and even disregarding how we could ever test for discovering that creator), we need to come up with a theory for where the creator came from and how it came into being. And so far nobody has been able to explain where that creator came from, or how you would design a test to prove, or at least suggest, the existence of a creator. So you could argue that science in this way has been used to suggest that it is highly unlikely that there is a creator. However if someone could ever suggest a way to test for this beyond "I think that there must be a creator and you scientists are just being close-minded" I'm sure that scientists would be all over it - would there be a more amazing and revolutionary scientific finding? Who wouldn't want to test that? It's not science's job to prove the non-existence of something, science is used to theorize how something works and test that theory.
OK, very long comment, but I hope it's helpful
Cheers!
I agree with you, Andrew. But you are more optimistic about the ability of all scientists, even important ones, to be purely objective. I think scientists are like Christians. We know how we are supposed to behave and we preach it. But sometimes we don't do it.
Anyway, I'm a philosopher who reads science and so I am not constrained by the proven (although I would never claim the unproven as fact, including the existence of God). And, as a philosopher, I don't think the numbers add up on evolutionary as it stands. This does not mean I am saying that God is missing, although, on a personal, non-philosophic level I like to think it is.
I won't give you the full five-minute version, MP, but will just note a list of problems.
First of all, the article is talking about "intelligent design" theorists, not young-earth creationists. The former may be a mask for young- and old-earth creationists, but is pretends to be scientific, which the latter generally do not. It is, of course, only a pretense. Their position is: I can't understand this phenomenon, therefore God did it. But their theses are neither predictive nor testable, which are the hallmarks of scientific method.
"The exact history of the human race" is not a task for biologists. And why should it be?
Is your "interbreeding" bit what they teach in Britain about finch evolution in the Galapagos? If so, the Brits' educational system is just as bad as Texas or Kansas here.
Your inability to "see" how evolution works in lungfish leads me to infer that you have a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle concept of evolution: that some "mutagen" will change an individual so that it has a radically different trait that can then be passed on to its descendants, and unless this trait is fully developed in some individual it will never come about. That concept, however, only works in cartoons; evolution by natural selection does not work like that.
The Gaia hypothesis is that the earth as a whole system is largely self-regulating through negative feedback. It doesn't have "gaps" and doesn't need "intelligence".
Criticizing scientists because they don't allow for the untestable influence of God doesn't wash. If you admit that science cannot establish the existence or nonexistence of God, then why are you requiring science to take into account that which it cannot account for?
And if you are looking for proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" or "conclusive" proof, you need to be in the fields of mathematics or logic, not science. Science involves the investigation of hypotheses to explain the world that can be supported or not by factual data. Hypotheses that are well-supported and have strong explanatory and predictive power are elevated to the level of t "theory". The theory of evolution is well-established by many fields of science. Those who pooh-pooh it by saying it's "only a theory" don't seem to understand this. Gravity also is "only theory" but they seem curiously unwilling to walk off skyscrapers in search of "gaps".
End of rant. Call it four minutes.
And Clumber and Andrew, who write faster than I do, are also right.
intelligent debate at OCICBW...
did I take something? I must have a fever and I'm probably hallucinating.
so confused. so very confused.
MadPriest, of course the earth is not 4000 years old. It's 7000 years old!
Actually, I have no argument with your thoughts, which along with Mimi's comments, likely does not help much. However, I think that some believe that acknowledging the miraculous will preclude the investigation of it, a premise I do not understand in the least.
The usual suspects are once again arguing with something that has not been said. But then, why should scientists be expected to know the rules of philosophical debate?
But if any philosophers wish to start teasing out stuff on this post it might be fun.
Good morning all.
This post disappointed me for many reasons, but Andrew and others have done an excellent job explaining the basics. The timescale of evolution is no shorter for humans than for anything else.
I agree with these commenters, MP, that yes, your post makes it clear you ARE a creationist, and more unfortunately you misrepresent the science and its process. Take a seat with Grace, please.
Here's another error. the beaks of Darwin's finches emphatically do NOT loook alike, that's the point--they have separated into species that vary according to their ecological niche, and moreover, this variation is very plastic, and species characteristics can change within a few generations under selective pressures. I recommend an excellent book called The Beak of the Finch that discusses a modern day study of this variation.
let me step back a minute. pace Dawkins and his ilk, this it not about God. This is not about a conflict between science and theology, as there is none. They are simply NOT concerned with each other, and I am very cross at Dawkins who brings God in just as much as any fundegelical. (I agree with him on many things, and obviously I think he's right on the basics, but unnecessary politicization of this issue is Not Helpful.)
As you may know, religious contemplatives historically contributed a lot to science and how we do it. First, let me remind you of William of Occam whose famous razor said "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity". This "law of parsimony" means we don't invoke more complicated explanations where a simpler one will do. Scientists do not need to invoke God when the theory works, which it does. If it doesn't, we happily throw away the piece that doesn't fit and make a new one. That's what we do for a living.
Second, the record of evolution in fossils shows us that there have been periods of enormous variability and periods of relative stability. See Stephen Jay Gould and "punctuated equilibrium". Evolution works not on individuals, but on populations, where survival and mating choice create selection. So the timescale argument doesn't work either.
Third, that other monk, the abbot of Brno, a certain genius Gregor Mendel, hero of all us geneticists, gave us the heart of the process in transmission genetics.
Fourth, there is chance, not certainty. back to Gould, who commented that if the "tape" of evolution could be rewound and replayed, then just by chance, it might come out differently--for example that the reptiles survived and the mammals remained mouse like critters scampering underfoot. Of course, it didn't work that way. You believers can perfectly happily believe that there was a guiding hand that made sure it didn 't but the point is that we need not invoke such a hand because the current tape is perfectly consistent with the knowledge that we have (see Occam). I think that is called "faith". If God were a certainty, you wouldn't need that, now, would you?
Finally, let me quote Francis Collins, director of the National Institute for Human Genome Research and one of the most prominent Christians in the scientific community.
what the Bible tells me about God and what science tells me about nature. Like St. Augustine in A.D. 400, I do not find the wording of Genesis 1 and 2 to suggest a scientific textbook but a powerful and poetic description of God's intentions in creating the universe. The mechanism of creation is left unspecified. If God, who is all powerful and who is not limited by space and time, chose to use the mechanism of evolution to create you and me, who are we to say that wasn't an absolutely elegant plan? And if God has now given us the intelligence and the opportunity to discover his methods, that is something to celebrate.
I lead the Human Genome Project, which has now revealed all of the 3 billion letters of our own DNA instruction book. I am also a Christian. For me scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.
Nearly all working biologists accept that the principles of variation and natural selection explain how multiple species evolved from a common ancestor over very long periods of time. I find no compelling examples that this process is insufficient to explain the rich variety of life forms present on this planet. While no one could claim yet to have ferreted out every detail of how evolution works, I do not see any significant "gaps" in the progressive development of life's complex structures that would require divine intervention. In any case, efforts to insert God into the gaps of contemporary human understanding of nature have not fared well in the past, and we should be careful not to do that now.
Science's tools will never prove or disprove God's existence. For me the fundamental answers about the meaning of life come not from science but from a consideration of the origins of our uniquely human sense of right and wrong, and from the historical record of Christ's life on Earth.
Now, I have grants to write, and research to perform, and genetics to teach.
IT
Is your "interbreeding" bit what they teach in Britain about finch evolution in the Galapagos? Yes, it is Paul. One has to be studying at degree level to get beyond that picture.
There also exists a high cultural expectation upon science, which is a hangover from the beginnings of modernism, equally popularised, that science and the advance of science will be the saviour of mankind. This exists not simply as an achievable good of itself but as an antithetical movement away from suspicion and religion.
Personally I rejoice in the incompleteness of understanding be it scientific, political, or theological. Science, as with poltical and theological disiplines seems to lack people who can communicate clearly and simply with the masses who do not have that particular discipline. Can you reccomend? I have previously enjoyed and found useful, Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen's joint writings very accesible in relation to the genetics of evolution.
But if any philosophers wish to start teasing out stuff on this post it might be fun.
MP you are a wicked! The first rule of philosophical debate is an absolute absence of fact! In posession of all facts we have no need of philosophers, or scientists for that matter. Your theological use of an ongoing 'creative' characterisitc of God is sufficiently ambiguous to produce the arguments against something you state has not been said.
Consider, there are no gaps for God to fill, the gaps are simply our own inadequacies.
Yes, themethat...., if we knew everything, if it was all solved, complete, fini, life would be pretty sad and boring.
Nature, that framed us of four elements
Warring within our breasts for regiment,
Doth teach us all to have aspiring minds.
Our souls, whose faculties can comprehend
The wondrous architecture of the world
And measure every wandering planet's course,
Still climbing after knowledge infinite,
And always moving as the restless spheres,
Will us to wear ourselves and never rest
(Marlowe)
Take a look at the Beak of the Finch book, cited in my posts above. I found it very readable.
cheers
IT
That's much better. And notice how tmtim managed to say that without shouting. It gladdens my heart.
Great post, great comment thread - and I knew IT would have cogent remarks to make on it :)
I only mentioned God in passing. The God thing is personal. Yet the scientists here are arguing against God's involvement in evolution. Which proves my point.
No, MP, we are not. We are arguing that it is not necessary to invoke God. You are perfectly free to faithfully believe God had a role, you are just have to agree that if He did, He did it in the context of an internally consistent scientific theory.
We are also correcting your erroneous statements .
IT
Wow, great thread.
Just one clarification, from the latest comment from MP:
"I only mentioned God in passing. The God thing is personal. Yet the scientists here are arguing against God's involvement in evolution. Which proves my point."
I'm not sure that scientists would or can argue against God's involvement in evolution, because as of now there is no scientific framework for testing whether or not God is involved. By this I mean that scientists, if they are good scientists, have to remain within the scientific realm. Like I said before, if someone could come up with a scientific test for god's involvement I'm sure any scientist would jump all over it - what could be a more revolutionary discovery??
And a side note: I think that Dawkins etc have gotten involved in the science/religion thing because of frustration about the ID hacks who twist the meaning of science and religion by trying to use or misuse science to prove religion. It just doesn't work because right now they are different frameworks. Religion is faith - science is science.
The risk of overlapping them is that either you will end up with incredibly bad science (using our current scientific framework, because you have to twist evidence) or you will negate faith. By this I mean that once you start to say "I scientifically believe that God was involved in creation and the mechanism for evolution" you can be challenged on how exactly that works: how would a god do that, how would a god set things in motion, where did this god get the ideas and mechanisms from, and how did the god even exist in the first place. If you take a scientific probability view of these questions you may end up suggesting that the likelihood of a creator is so incredibly small that this creator in all probability doesn't exist.
Put me in Occam's and Francis Collins' camp on these issues.
Yes, I do know a little something about creation, but only a little. Unlike me, God creates out of nothing. What I do is take panels or canvas and a bunch of colored dirt mixed with vegetable oil, and smear it around into something that our brains recognize as an image. Unlike what God creates, these things are not alive. When I create them, they are out of my hands and assume a life of their own in the world at the mercy of admirers and critics. What I do is but a very dim shadow of what God does.
We have only our faith to guide us. Nowhere is God going to pop his head through Time and Space and say "Yoohoo! Here I am!" (actually, He did that once with Moses, and Moses never quite got it. He came down as a guest among us once, and we really didn't get it and ended up killing Him).
I knew IT would not disappoint.
This whole discussion is interesting with many insightful contributions.
I feel like I have a fan club. :-)
Really, you all should check out the finch book. It's nicely written, and not techy. It's by Jonathan Weiner.
IT
Another thing about the whole scientific-proof-for-God's-existence business, suppose God really did pop in and say "Yo!", How would we know it's really God we see? Would a god who could be scientifically demonstrated really be God?
I got as far as "you are a creationist" and stopped reading your comment IT, so I'm afraid I have not been put right.
I don't believe anything in the way scientists understand the word "believe." At best I posit possibilities and tentatively allow myself to accept things as if they are true. Most good philosophers would view their beliefs similarly which is why science should listen to philosophy like it did in the olden days. In fact, many scientists were philosophers. If Einstein hadn't been a philosopher first and a mathematician second, we wouldn't be having this discussion because I wouldn't, as a philosopher, be thinking about observation and quantum states.
All the greatest breakthroughs in science, including evolutionary theory have been made by philosophers. Then the lab techs come along and do the proving it bit.
"Say first, of God above, or man below,
What can we reason, but from what we know?
Of man, what see we but his station here,
From which to reason, or to which refer?"
I do believe Pope predated rap by about, what? 300 years? For some reason I can hear in my mind a beatbox to this.
"Yo."
Ah, MP, you disappoint me--are you afraid of what I said?
I freely admit, I am but a humble scientist. You clearly don't think much of us scientists because we generally aren't philosphers. But that did not stop me reading your posts, even if I disagree. I admit, I don't understand the point of all this, if you choose not to read posts that disagree with you.
But I'm not a lofty philosopher, so obviously this exceeds my narrow understanding.
Since there's no point of posting further, I think I need to go back to doing cancer research. ;-)
IT
And I concur with IT on the finch book; it can help make up for the deficient education so many of us may have been saddled with. (And who is not a member of the IT fan club?)
Unlike, IT, however, I am a philosopher and have a degree to "prove" it. So I can ask: MP, whatever makes you think that a scientist understands the word "believe" in any different way than you do?
And again, you have to get off this ill-begotten notion of science "proving" anything, by lab techs or otherwise. Science at best can "disprove" a hypothesis by finding contrary evidence. Supporting evidence only supports but does not "prove". Loath as I am to recommend Karl Popper to anyone, you might expand your reading list a bit to include his work on the philosophy of science.
And I need to go back to drafting documents.
Good stuff, indeed.
As an adjunct to the discussion, I offer the thoughts of an atheist friend who was responding to this:
The Edge Annual Question — 2008
When thinking changes your mind, that's philosophy.
When God changes your mind, that's faith.
When facts change your mind, that's science.
WHAT HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND ABOUT? WHY?
Science is based on evidence. What happens when the data change? How have scientific findings or arguments changed your mind?"
From here at Edge.
My friend's response was, in part, as follows:
When you trace out the physiological process each biological human entity goes through to interpret whatever input it receives from its environment, what are "facts"? Are they not inevitably a complex set of interpretations by each human? How accurately does that intepretive system that each of human inevitably come down to being, interpret its various inputs and its own reactions to that input?
My suggestion is that "Science" is about philosophy as well, not "facts." Science is about the various hypothetical efforts to interpret what it proposes might be facts outside and beyond the individual's limits of perception, as well as the "facts" within those limits. These "facts" are mapped out endlessly by each human and shared through codes in a manner that is filled with potential for misreading and misunderstanding.
Most of the Twentieth Century has been a long argument about that problem and folks like Kuhn and Popper have proposed their notions of reasonable ways to come to grips with the dilemma of "knowing" just what a fact might be. Through that argument, logical positivism has lost its influence, because it could not prove its points about facts, and Science has gone in a new direction from its original intentions, which was to essentially "reveal" the real world so that human beings need not be subject to self deceptive religious views....
The transformation in philosophy, and especially the philosophy of science, over the last Century was the argument the realists lost, the realists being the logical positivist empiricists. They simply could not make their case, and the deconstructionists won out, and with the deconstructionists, I think we have that realm of physics that has found its way into correlative associations with Buddhist thought, and New Age thinking, because we find orselves with little substantial to actually prove to be a fact, it falls back on the maps, which are only the hypothesis and theory we try to share, though we buttress them with dogma and rhetorical assertion as if we know something, barking our threat gestures like baboons when we are questioned.
So there you have Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions." It's about fabrics of thought and getting individuals to adopt and share a certain warp and woof in the tapestry that becomes the current paradigm. But a paradigm is little more than a narrative myth in the final analysis.
Now let me say, first, that I think that I think the bit about science's original intentions is inaccurate, at best, but I have included it because I think what is critical because, despite the claims pro and con of those embroiled in religion vs. science debates, science no longer is after revelation in the same sense it was once perceived as seeking. The notion of a "real world" that can or will be revealed through empirical study is itself a human construct -- one which is extremely useful and which can be understood as being, for human practical purposes, "real" and may, in "fact" be "real" in terms of the extent to which it can be supported by both social agreement and whatever it is that is "external" that interacts with human senses and neurological processes.
To some extent, both science and religion point to "realities" that cannot be empirically proven, though a great deal of bog-standard science rests on what can be gleaned from empirical research and analysis. In either realm of human endeavor or understanding, we humans will always be limited by who and what were "are" as humans. We can "create" or "discover" narratives of the Big Bang or Genesis or Evolution or ID or whatever else suits our fancy, but none of these can "reveal" what is ultimately "real" as we once naively hoped they could.
I think both science and religion can be terribly parochial in terms of unwillingness to consider whether understandings and experiences on either side can be informed by the other's. Ironically, some from both sides are hung up on the notion of a human-like Creator acting in time and space in some kind of sequential drama, whether it be Genesis, Evolution, variations or mixtures of these, or something else altogether. I, for one, believe that God exists, that God is more than a socially agreed upon linguistic construct (or no more or less so than scientific ones), and that he/she/it is a "real" part of human experience. I can imagine all sorts of science-fiction kinds of scenarios that would explain or account for the God I experience. There also are some kinds of supposedly scientific theories going around about genetic pre-dispositions for thinking and believing in terms of causation and identifiably distinct brain activity involved in spiritual experiences (which, of course, can be interpreted both for and against some kind of spiritual reality beyond the confines of human neurology). But on the whole, I do not see what is the point of haggling over what kind of reality God "actually" represents -- social or physical -- when the two cannot be entirely separated. What counts, in my view, are the fruits of belief in God, for which the jury may still be out.
Thus ends my contribution, which I know no sane or insane person will wade through. Thanks for the space, MP, and my apologies to those whose recent postings I've missed.
Another vote for the Finch book. Throw in Carl Zimmer's book on Evolution, another called Endless Forms Most Beautiful on Evo-devo, and maybe even a book called gen.e.sis. All fairly readable to the layperson (hey, I'm a dog, not a scientist!) and the Prothero book and you will have a good basic understanding of even how "The Theory of Evolution" has changed over time. Darwin might not even recognize parts of the theory now! That's how scientific theories work.
And not that I understood klady's post, but I don't think casting this as "science vs. religion" is quite right. There's room for both. I certainly believe in God, but I also think that scientists are doing good work into the mechanisms that God created.
Frogs! Blivet, blivet. And then of course there are butterflies.
Science's tools will never prove or disprove God's existence.
IT, Francis Collins is quite correct, however certain well-known scientists assume the non-existence of God as though it is settled and proven. That muddies the waters considerably.
And I would repeat: imagination, imagination, imagination and a mind that roams free. Of course, I could not imagine a scientific breakthrough, simply because I don't possess the knowledge or background in science. But the fundies among the scientists box themselves in just as much as the religious fundies do.
Because I have no deep knowledge of either science or philosophy, I still must make decisions about what I believe based on the best knowledge at my command.
And, yes, The Beak of the Finch is a fine, accessible book.
And since everyone else is suggesting books to further enlighten, I loved Darwin's Ghost, by Steve Jones, which did a wonderful,readable job of explaining modern(ca. 2000) genetic explanations of Darwin's original work.
And who the feck cares what the bishop has offered-up for Lenten reading, anyway, eh IT?
It's a little disappointing to see the argument from personal incredulity so boldly stated. "I don't believe that the math adds up for human evolution, hence [God/Odin/Mystic Prime Mover]" is, of course, a perfectly permissible collection of words, but as an argument it needs a lot more to back it up. For example, based on your calculations approximately how much time *would* have been required for humans to develop without external guidance? 14 million years? 28 million? Either you can answer this because of the work you did questioning the 7 million year figure, or you show that you are indeed arguing from personal incredulity. Which is, of course, no argument at all.
Only fundie philosophers say that you need to know about philosophy, Mimi. All you actually have to do to be a philosopher is think. Heck, even some women can do that.
I'm not saying I understand it either, Clumber, but the sum of what I was trying to get at might be summarized in this:
"it falls back on the maps, which are only the hypothesis and theory we try to share, though we buttress them with dogma and rhetorical assertion as if we know something, barking our threat gestures like baboons when we are questioned."
The "maps" of religion and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they are both just that, maps, and to read them together as describing the same "reality" requires both a) an assumption that they must be woven together in order to be valid or at least be worthy of mutual respect, and b) a willingness to reject elements in each that insist upon being viewed as mutually exclusive.
MP and many others want to read them together, whereas IT (maybe?) and others find it cleaner and easier to read them separately, at the very least to avoid the distraction of the significance and limits of empirical reality. Those of a more philosophical bent are probably those who cannot help but try to read them together, one way or another. I admit to falling in the latter camp, however much I obfuscate. ;) (Must be reading too much Rowan Williams lately)
And yes, MP, maybe it all amounts to a willingness to "think" in and out and between and beyond whichever boxes present themselves.
As evolutionary theory has not been (entirely) proved.
As I'm not trying to prove it.
I don't have to justify my incredulity.
But for a fish to evolve into a lungfish is mathematically (almost) impossible.
I don't think that proves God and I never said that you belligerent tosser. But I do think that it proves SOMETHING is missing from evolutionary theory.
Thanks Klady
I'm glad somebody else knows how to play "What if" without accusing the "What iffer" of saying definite things. It's like Galileo in reverse round here. No wonder humans have evolved so slowly.
Let's hear it for Aquinas and the first cause.
Again, MP, you make the error of seeking "proof" where "proof" does not apply.
That a lungfish is a descendant of fishes is scarcely to be doubted. The mathematical likelihood of any given individual's existence is infinitesimal; and yet the probability in fact is 1. But that shows that nature is all it's cracked up to be or your math skills are off, or possibly both. And it doesn't "prove" anything.
You are free to be as incredulous as you wish. Your incredulity, however, ain't science.
Let's hear it for Aquinas and the first cause.
Yo, DP! Although I can't say that I find Aquinas' proofs entirely convincing. I just wanted to say, "Yo, DP!" because I think you're a very nice person.
1In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
2the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
3Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.
Or in the case of science there was the big bang. We are told there was momentary glow and then about 500.000.000 (thats five hundred million) years later gravity was reduced enough that the stars that had formed had gravity below the escape volicity of light so that the stars shone.
4And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
My question Is not about the length of the days, my question is how did the author know that evening was first?
That a lungfish is a descendant of fishes is scarcely to be doubted. The mathematical likelihood of any given individual's existence is infinitesimal; and yet the probability in fact is 1.
Just as I thought, Paul. You've not read my post.
Fish turned into lungfish. They evolved. That's what I said originally.
However, I think there are only two ways this, and all the other evolutions, could have happened. Either, we live in an almost infinite multiverse and it's pure chance that in this universe the randomness all came together - every time. Or, there is something else involved that we have not yet discovered.
Okay, I think I finally understand your mathematics idea here. One of the texts on evolution says that the major misunderstanding about evolution is to think of the action as ascending a tree. Man comes from chimps. Chimps came from lemurs (or something). Rather, the right way to consider evolution (supported by the fossil record) is to think of a giant bush, loaded with species. A lot of the bush gets pruned over time. The common ancestor of chimps and humans is neither. It was something else.
In fact, there have been lots and lots of other branches tried along the way to evolve both the chimp and the human (and the elephant and the lungfish). The other piece here is that it is the very opposite of randomness that it all came together. Each and every variation was tested and either proved to be advantageous or not. The genetic variations might be termed random, but the result of the variation was tested every single time for fitness and survivability (although reproduction was what mattered, not survivability per se).
Ooops, gotta go to church again.
Kathy,
I understood you, and agree with you.
So, I think, might the fourteenth c. CE author of *The Cloud of Unknowing*
Sorry, I meant ascending a ladder in the first paragraph there....
A lot of the bush gets pruned over time.
In the sense of the temporal existence of a species, yes. The genetic map is not neccesarily pruned. I can't reember what proportion exactly but we and all other species carry in our DNA stuff which remains largely unused which is a remnant of the 'bits'.
In relation to my own medical condition it made me wonder if my ailing guts, is a product of some past genetic inheritance of a species designed to cope with an environment different to the one I am in now. Is that genetic inheritance hanging around in case the previous environment returns?
Is that genetic inheritance hanging around in case the previous environment returns?
TheMe, it could be that you'll still be hanging in when the rest of us are gone. But who will you have fun with?
MP: I saw your last post and wanted to note something.
You said "Fish turned into lungfish. They evolved." Yes, that's broadly true. But it's not like a couple of fish had a baby fish which happened to have lungs. There are transitions. There are many transitional fossils of animals like horses which support the gradual evolution of forms. But the fossil record is not complete, because not every animal which ever lived became a fossil, and many fossils are either buried at the bottom of the ocean or have decayed. But the ones we have tend to support the theory of evolution. Some fossil forms allow scientists to modify the theory as they see new information, but the broad theory of evolution continues to stand. More completely, geneticists can use the genetic record to map relationships between organisms by tracing back the similarities and differences in genomes, so you can see evolutionary lineage.
A good example of gradual evolution is the eye. The human eye is is often held up as being "irreducibly complex", which is a ridiculous statement for a couple of reasons: 1) a partially working eye still works (some people have glasses, some are colorblind, some have cataracts but their eyes still basically work), and 2) There are differently complex eyes in the world. "Lower" organisms have very simple eyes which can only detect light - they're basically a clump of light detecting neurons and are an example of early versions of eyes. Other primates and some birds of prey have much more powerful eyes than we do.
The next statement you made was "However, I think there are only two ways this, and all the other evolutions, could have happened. Either, we live in an almost infinite multiverse and it's pure chance that in this universe the randomness all came together - every time. Or, there is something else involved that we have not yet discovered."
Well we could live in a multiverse, but that's probably nothing to do with evolution. In this universe it's not really pure chance that things came together. It's natural selection. This means that because of genetic mutations there is the potential for changes in organisms which may or may not be suitable for the environment the organism is currently inhabiting. There are three ways a mutation could be expressed in an organism: it could have no apparent change in the way the organism develops; it could have a detrimental change which could cause the organism to die before it breeds, or to be less likely to breed and pass on the genetic modification to its offspring; or it could be an enhancement which makes the organism more likely to be able to breed and therefore pass on the more effective mutation. So although the mutations themselves may be chance, the outcome is the mechanism of how genetic mutation causes an organism to interact with its environment, which is natural selection and this is not chance.
And it doesn't happen every time. If it did there would be no extinct animals, there would be no stillbirths, and every organism would have an equal chance of procreation. Without mutation there is no adaptation, which means that if the environment changes (ice age, new viruses or anything in between) organisms will not be able to evolve.
There could indeed be something else involved. But nobody has yet come up with a good way for coming up with evidence that this is the case. Many people say that they feel that there is, or that scientists should use more imagination. To feel that there is is fine, as long as you realize that this is faith and not science. And feeling that something is true does not make it true (it doesn't make it false either). And scientists do use their imagination - if it wasn't for the imagination of scientists you wouldn't be using a computer right now, or driving a car, or using antibiotics...
By the way, esteemed fellow-commenters, I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, I'm hoping to add clarification from the scientific side (and hope I'm succeeding...) The reason some scientists get worked up in these debates is that sometimes the science is complex and people start to selectively draw facts and half-facts - I think that the well-intentioned are trying to make sure everyone's playing on a level field.
The problem for me is that if you try to mix science and religion and philosophy eventually one wins (this is my worldview anyway) because at some point to reach consensus you have to decide on a way to back up what you're saying, and you have to choose a religious point of view (faith) or scientific (evidence) or philosophical (argument).
I think that if you say that you agree with the scientific view of evolution but you have the religious view that something started it, the onus is then on you to explain exactly where the scientific part (I believe in evolution) stops and the religious part (I believe in a creator) starts, and why you have made that decision. Don't you think? Or are other people comfortable with making that decision? I thought that to have faith you didn't have to have proof, so why do so many modern Christians try to prove their faith?
Andrew, I'm not one who feels compelled to prove my faith, because I could not do that anyway. If it's possible to prove faith, then there is no need for faith.
I don't think now, nor did I ever think that faith and science conflict. I do grow impatient with the ignorant among the believers and the ignorant among the scientists who declare as fact that which is not fact.
Faith v. science is simply not an issue for me. Those who feel a need to attempt to prove their faith are likely insecure in their faith, IMHO.
MadPriest: But for a fish to evolve into a lungfish is mathematically (almost) impossible.
well, no.
millions of little steps. Massive amounts of genetic variation at each step, the vast majority of which either have no effect on the ability of the resulting fish to reproduce, or actually lessen the ability. But in the vast numbers of dice rolls at each step, one will often occur. A good one. And that one sticks.
Because even if a mutation provides only a .1% increased chance at surviving long enough to reproduce or the same increased chance at gaining the attention of a partner for reproduction, in less than 100 generations (say around 100 years for most species) that new characteristic will be ubiquitous throughout the breeding population. It is that fast. Now consider that variations don't happen one at a time but are happening at every level in every generation on every possible system and structure in the organism and you can see how a fish is likely to become a lungfish.
Each generation rolls the dice to find a small genetic advantage that exploits a niche or provides an infinitesimal advantage.
So steps to a lungfish probably went through ability to better extract oxygen from water, and gill sacks that self-moisten allowing oxygen removal from the air, slowing of metabolism, improved internal skeleton, etc. Each tiny step toward each of these results generated an improvement in the chances of the resulting fish.
Each tiny change was a result of countless rolls of the dice (most of which did not work out).
The success of these creatures to exploit new ecological niches, in the midst of every other species undergoing genetic changes and also attempting to exploit the same resources for survival and propagation, shows that it is dependent on the sheer randomness of it all. If it were not random it would collapse.
I am going to say something shocking but that I believe is true: I doubt that any deity could be grand enough or complex enough to understand and control all of the millions upon millions upon billions of tiny experiments that must run for evolution to work just on planet earth.
And once you shift the picture to the universe at large, any deity would be likely to dabble in the results and to skew the direction of change. And this would make the whole system break down.
Let's leave discussions about the god or the gods where they belong: morals and ethics and value and purpose and religious experience and feeling.
The universe is too grand and far too large to be managed by an all knowing god even at the level of this planet, much less the entire universe.
God rides the whirlwind. Let demands that god be a god of omnipotence and omniscience go - and join God for the ride.
There comes a point where an all knowning and all-involved deity in the system becomes the weak point in the running of the show.
From the subatomic level to clusters of galaxies, randomness rules the day and any all-knowing god would be unable to comprehend, manage or direct the show. With the number of events occurring at even the subatomic level at the same time throughout the universe it would require a deity that was multiply larger than the entire universe by an order of billions. Just to comprehend the subatomic events occurring. Add the interactions between each event (not even leaving the subatomic level, just the interactions) and you have to increase the size of this god by billions more just to process the information.
Randomness is far simpler. It is even easier to comprehend the role of the god as a participant and fellow traveler with us in a world shaped and directed by sheer random mutation and events born from chaos.
And those who complain that this makes it all feel meaningless?
Stop projecting.
You are brushing up against the certainty of your own death. Don't try and rewrite how the universe works just to better manage the certainty of death.
instead, and this is where the Buddha and the Stoics agree, let go of desire. Let go of the expectations and the demands. Accept the randomness. Ride the whirlwind, too.
No Clumber
You continue to ignore what I said.
I am an avid reader of stuff on science and i use it in my sermons. I understand evolutionary theory and I read books on human evolution in particular so I know all about evolutionary experiments.
I just do not believe that there is enough time in the universe to allow one major evolutionary jump to happen without something other than random mating involved.
Please! I know all that, Andrew. That is why I dare to talk about these things.
But as a philosopher I find the whole concept of a fish evolving into a lung fish by stages ludicrous unless you have numbers involved that could not been contained within the time the universe has been in existence. You would, as I said earlier, need an almost infinite number of universes to get the sort of numbers that you would require and even then there would be no guarantee as it is quite possible for an infinite number of universes to all be the same.
Ah, Andrew. If you go back way into the past of OCICBW... you will find threads where I am being attacked by everybody for saying that if God exists then he can be studied scientifically (if we could locate him, of course). I also believe God is subject to science and that he can only do that which it is possible to do. So, you see, I have a higher regard for science than most theologians. To me, if God is involved in creation it will not be miraculous, it will just be ordinary science, because it will have to be a possibility. So, I am not attacking science because I don't believe in anything else. All I'm doing is saying that we haven't got evolution right yet. There is something SCIENTIFIC missing. That might be God but how the hell would I know?
I never read other philosophers because it can interfere with your own thinking. But I read a lot of science books and history books. I like to get the information and then work the stuff out myself. It's more fun that way and it's not like I teach the stuff or anything.
No Dennis
Because a fish can either breath out of water or drown. There is no middle option so no middle mutation would ever be an advantage.
IT you WOMAN!!!
You call me a fundie creationist. You liken me to Grace. You don't take the trouble to understand what I wrote before defending something I wasn't even attacking and now you have the audacity to be offended!!!!!!!!!
WOMEN!!!!
MP etc: fish have lung sacs which helps them to circulate air/water through their cells and can also help with feeding (suction mechanisms). Over time it is theorized that these lung sacs became more useful as a means of oxygen exchange to cells around the lung area. As fish began to move towards the surface of the water (like lungfish) the gas exchange uses of the lungs became more useful; the usage of gills less so. A mutation which makes lungs more useful would be more of an advantage because the animal could start to colonize land. It is possible for an animal to have vestigial gill function and primitive lung function - that's your in between. Here's one of many articles a quick google brought up: http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/2/739
An interesting hypothesis, Andrew. One of which, believe it not, I had thought about for years, because that's how I do my thinking. But I still conclude that the numbers are too big as is the jump between water and air. And remember this is only one example out of billions - which just increases the numbers involved.
What I want to know is this: why did we evolve to seek God? Every human culture as far back as we can detect has had religion. If we aren't to seek God, and there is no God, why in the world would we have evolved the capacity for awe, wonder, and... well you know. Wanting to know the mind of God? I'm thinking of a poem I read at Doxy's today. It's about that moment when you feel God's presence. And once you have felt that, sensed that, then you just yearn for it to happen again.
So if there is no God, why are we like this? Why in the world are we having this discussion?
Wow.
Dennis, I agree with much of what you said, in particular that we need to give up the notion of "deity" in the traditional sense of managing, operating, intervening as someone or something external to Creation. Personally, I believe Jesus came to show us what we might understand in human form. When we start positing deities in terms of what we know here on earth, we run into big trouble.
MP,
I'm sorry I don't follow the fish business -- math, gaps, or mystery. Seems to me that there is no doubt that Evolution is a theory, and no doubt that it is one that has changed considerably over the years. Me, I'm happy to leave it to the experts to testify as to how thoroughly and remarkably it has been found to conform to what has been observed and tested.
As for the rest, ... I've gone rather overboard again, but I just had to try, at least for my own sake, to sort out what I perceive as the differences in language and the assumptions beneath them. So.....
****************************
Andrew, I’ve very much appreciated what you have brought here. I think I understand your perspective [with regard to parts quoted below], and it is one that works well, as I have suggested before, for those who find it neater and cleaner to simply make sharp divisions between science and religion. It does not work, however, for me. I do not expect to persuade you to see it otherwise, but I’d like to at least try to see if I can bridge the linguistic gap. Here goes.
“The problem for me is that if you try to mix science and religion and philosophy eventually one wins … because at some point to reach consensus you have to decide on a way to back up what you're saying, and you have to choose a religious point of view (faith) or scientific (evidence) or philosophical (argument).”
Lots of problems with this. Lots of loaded words and phrases, such as: “mix” “wins” “reach consensus” “decide” “back up” and “you have to choose.” None of these are necessary or inevitable – all rely on various assumptions as to what is being considered or examined, how it may be done, and to what ends.
Biggest problem with this: “I thought that to have faith you didn't have to have proof.”
Nonsense. As far as I am concerned, faith would be meaningless if it were simply what one “decides” or “chooses” without any experience with and observations of what it, for lack of a better word, points to. It is a fiction, often propagated by atheistic scientists, that people of faith engage in mythmaking substantially different from the mythmaking of science. God is felt and seen. Faith means being faithful to one’s knowledge and experience of God. Everyone does not have the same knowledge or experience of God; some believe they have had none, some believe that no one possibly can. One cannot “prove” God exists in the sense of traditional, logical positivistic ways of thinking and knowing how physical reality operates. But one’s way of conceiving one’s spiritual experience is something that can be shared with others, so as to reach a kind of consensus. The consensus, however, is not necessarily or primarily about an alternative account of how what we know as the physical universe operates. It is, however, about a realm of experience that “really” exists for those who witness it (both in the sense of observation and living it out).
Now, one can choose to accept, reject, or suspend one’s judgment regarding the nature or truth or reality (pick one or more) of such experience reported by others or personal experience that might fall within such a conceptual framework. Where problems come in is where people want some degree of certainty regarding whether and how our scientific and religious understandings of various kinds of experience may fit (or not) together. We can pray to God, type on our computers, take trains, planes, and automobiles, and come back to kneel, and bow, and sing to the “high heavens” over and over again in a lifetime and not have any difficulty. But for those who insist on not just thinking about or considering how God might exist within, without, over and above, inside or out, or simply be the universe, as best we know it, but also deciding that this is how it all “must” have happened, is happening, and will happen, of course there is going to be some kind of conflict.
To put it another way, it’s not that religious people do not “need” empirical proof of the kind recognized by some branches of science as “evidence” of physical matter, energy, or dynamics, it is that they (at least the non-fundamentalists) do not insist on figuring out how it all “works” in order to accept their spiritual experiences as “real.” Not only do they not insist on it, the “mystery” they encounter may seem utterly incapable of being reduced to discrete physical entities or functions that can be observed or tested in the usual ways or have a discernible historical record of operation other than in the (for lack of better words) the hearts and minds of people who have spoken of it.
Is that a cop-out? Yes, in a way, certainly so if one’s a priori assumption is that there is no God and cannot be a God because she/he/it must be something separate, apart, discernable, and operative in the physical universe or otherwise be outside of nature (i.e. “supernatural”), which we all “know” is not possible.
So why should people of faith give a hoot about matters of science other than to use it as a tool to do things like cure diseases or provide transportation, housing, warmth, nourishment, etc.? Well, those who envision philosophy as a perspective for viewing various fields of human knowledge and inquiry – the physical sciences, social sciences, and humanities – there is much to be learned about who and what we are as human beings, including what we think and feel, what thinking and feeling are, what is consciousness, meaning, etc. Isn't there a line in Shakespeare about this? something about Horatio?
***************
johnieb - you making fun of me?!? ;)
"Science is not a construct where anything is ever "accepted as a complete and proved theory". Any scientist who does this is basically a charlatan. There's no such thing as a "scientific fundamentalist" - a true scientist will always allow his or her theories to be undermined by further scientific findings."
Too bad theologians don't use this same concept!
But Klady. It hasn't been tested. There are far too many gaps in the record and they are mostly the important gaps. No other branch of science would claim something had been proved with the limited examples that evolutionary theory basis itself on. It's 10% science. 20% philosophy and 70% faith.
I still think it's probably right but that there's still something we are missing. As most evolutionists are convinced nothing is missing (see hysterical reactions above) and that nothing could be missing, they probably wouldn't notice the thing that is missing if it popped into their lecture room and introduced itself (see also Christians).
MadPriest, I don't get your math thinking, but it's probably best if you don't try to explain it to me, since I seem to be the one with the least knowledge here, and I would not understand it anyway.
Also, I don't see why the evolution of the lungfish is more improbable than other evolutionary events.
MP said: "I just do not believe that there is enough time in the universe to allow one major evolutionary jump to happen without something other than random mating involved."
Is time God or is God time?
Great discussion, Mad One!
MP, of course I'm a woman! Glad you noticed. ;-)
May I introduce you to the anabantoids, a class of fish that breaths air as well as water. You probably have seen them; their most common representative is Betta splendens, aka the Siamese fighting fish, which are popular as pets. I have a fondness for these personable animals and BP and I keep quite a few of them.
Bettas have something called a labyrinth organ at the roof of their mouth, in addition to their gills. They often come to the surface of water to breath air.
This is thought to be an evolutionary adaptation to their native habitat which is small puddles in SE Asia. Bettas can therefore survive very poor quality water with low oxygen levels, because they can supplement the work of their gills with air. (This is one of the reasons they are such popular pets, as they don't need water filters).
They are notable jumpers, and presumably can flop from one puddle into another. Serious collectors say that they can survive quite a long time out of water, as long as they are moist, thanks to this ability. It isn't sufficient to keep them alive forever, as apparently the gas exchange isn't THAT effective, but it appears to be a very useful adaptation.
How did it evolve? Probably in response to poor water quality. Also they like to use the air to blow bubble nests, in which they lay their eggs. The male blows them, and the female comes over to check out his bubbles.
IT
"Science is not a construct where anything is ever "accepted as a complete and proved theory". Any scientist who does this is basically a charlatan. There's no such thing as a "scientific fundamentalist" - a true scientist will always allow his or her theories to be undermined by further scientific findings."
Of course they don't, they would be working themselves out of jobs if they did. they need another scientist to disagree/disprove in order to get their next research grant....and whilst they may not be fundamentalist they can get pretty touchy about stuff. Bohr and Schrödinger were not exactly bosom buddies.
klady, that's neoconstructivism, and I'm afraid I find much of it, er, ---unpersuasive. Mythmaking of science indeed!
Do have a pulse? It's not a myth, is it? It's an observable, physical phenomenon. And reasons you ahve a pulse (in a physical sense) have no myth about them either: electrical impulses stimulating your cardiac muscle to contract, which drives your blood through your arteries and veins.
Now, obviously, before William Harvey, the details of your circulatory system were not known. But those who wrote explanations before Harvey, however wrong they were, did not do so in an interest in "myth", but in an interest in "explanation". The absolute reality of a pulse existed regardless of whether they had the tools or knowledge to explain how it really worked.
we don't have a fully complete understanding of our own evolution. But we know a lot about how the processes work, from DNA mutation, to selection, to environment. And, since we shave in Occam's barbarshop, we have no reason to invoke "unnecessary entities" in explanation; instead, we work within the context of observable facts, make hypotheses, and test them.
Your spiritual experiences and the "reality" of God you experience there are not the subject of the scientist, beyond the fact that your neurons fired. Our world is the measurable, observable, physical one. Not the same place.
They needn't be in conflict, any more than the scientist should be in conflict with counterlight's perception of what he considers artistic beauty. I may agree or disagree with counterlight's judgment but if I do, it is as a subjective being, not as a scientist. As a scientist, all I can measure is canvas and pigment. The evaluation of the image, how much it moves him, is not scientific.
Similarly, I may be deeply moved by some music that leaves you cold. The scientist can only measure volume and frequency, and cannot address why my perception is so different than yours.
At least, not yet. ;-)
IT
MP,
I haven't had time to read through all of this thread, but before you get too grumpy and upset, you should be quite proud.
This is a first rate discussion. It's as good, if not better, than the discussions on the other "highbrow" blogs. You've got scientists and theology types having fruitful conversations with artists, pagans, and all the other assorted regulars and irregulars here; not bad for a former lorry driver turned priest. I'm certain that Simon over there on Thinking Anglicans must be green with envy.
Thanks for a great post and discussion.
No one has mentioned the Anthropic Principle yet, the fact that physical laws happen to be just right for life and that any slight deviation would make life impossible. The multiverse theory with it's 10^500 power universes answers this by saying that out of this near-infinity of universes there ought to be a few that support life. I understand this is still controversial, but shouldn't it be unscientific to say that the multiverse theory must be true because we're here? Or maybe there are other possibilities. In any case, isn't science dragging us into the bizarre? Didn't we sort of know this would happen? Why is there something rather than nothing? :-)
IT,
please refrain from confusing such a stimulating discussion with your tedious data: thank you.
PS: you are far and away my favorite scientist.
God rides the whirlwind. Let demands that god be a god of omnipotence and omniscience go - and join God for the ride.
That's really beautiful, Dennis (and, unsurprisingly, I agree!)
The male blows them, and the female comes over to check out his bubbles.
Sex. Always, The Sex. ;-/
Why is it, that Our Resident Atheist not only "gets" Christian ethics, so much better than MOST Christians---but has a calm, dare I say Christ-like way of presenting an argument, as well? ;-p
Maddie, honey: ***Chill Pill Time*** [Said JCF, Neuro-pharmacologically-enhanced, by prescription, myself! *g*]
1) Good Clumber. Have another biscuit.
2) re: Francis Collins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14ncHnHNp4
(really Ms. Paul (A))
Evolution: Adopt a teen-aged orphan; treat a poor family to a meal at Joe Allens; buy two rounds of drinks for all journeymen on a Friday evening at a local pub; help dig a grave for a dead homeless person; give away all clothing not worn by yourself in the past year to the streetpeople; visit a prison and ask the warden to please distribute the 10 cartons of cigarrettes you brought along; take a copy of "The Giving Tree" to the children's hospital and deliver it to the kid with terminal cancer;
Thanks Ms. Paul (A), but I am really really confused now. MP talks about missing gaps and mathematical impossibilities and I am really feeling like I missed the whole thing he's trying to say. Perhaps if a few missing important gaps were cited we could gain some understanding, but he keeps talking about theories being proved and scientists not having open minds, which makes little sense to me. Perhaps tomorrow we can all just say "Well that was fun" and go back to what we were doing. Me, I'm off to have a biscuit (thanks!) and a long nights sleep.
I need to start by saying that this is one of the most invigorating discussions I've had in a long time.
To respond to MP on his take "There are far too many gaps in the record and they are mostly the important gaps. No other branch of science would claim something had been proved with the limited examples that evolutionary theory basis itself on. It's 10% science. 20% philosophy and 70% faith"
Yes there are indeed gaps but the point of science is that you work on something to fill the gaps (and if what you find changes the overall theory then that's what you do - it's a big deal for a scientist to find something which changes the paradigm - it's the way to Nobel prizes, so everyone wants to do it). What you don't do is say "Well there's something missing" and say "It must be a creator". I don't think you're going quite that far, and maybe I've been reading too much nonsense by the Discovery Institute, I would hate to be tarring you with the same brush. I think you'd have to try very hard indeed to find an evolutionist who thinks nothing is missing. When new findings come out they help to fill the gaps, as noted above, and so far although there have been shifts in the understanding of evolution, most findings tend to support the theory (I think I've already said that, hopefully not hysterically).
Klady: thanks for the input. I'm trying really hard to keep my comments short (and failing). My statement about mixing science and religion was abbreviated to try not to have disclaimers, but I see I might have to expand it.
What I meant was that people seem to like to know how things work. I think that's how creation myths and superstitions and religions come about, because people like to be able to explain the world. In days gone by it could be that people thought quite differently; nowadays we live in a world where philosophy and science intermingle more and more and this has changed the way we think about the world, which is why I said "at some point you have to decide on a way to back up what you're saying, and you have to choose how to do this".
What I meant here was that someone with a religious worldview prefers to have a religious-type explanation, someone with a scientific worldview tends towards a scientific explanation of what is being discussed, and because these are different ways of speaking it's very hard to come to consensus on things, as we are all finding. I'm not saying that one way of explaining things is better than another, just that they are very different. The methodology of formulating answers is very different as well. For scientists to have any standing they must produce data explaining how they came to their conclusions (or non-conclusions) and be prepared for others to test, retest, and test again their experiments (practical or theoretical). I'm married to a theologian, and I hope that she won't kill me for saying that in theology you don't have to do the same thing, because it's more of a liberal arts approach. Not to say one approach is better than the other, they are just very different, so again it's hard to reach consensus.
And sorry you think it's nonsense that I said to have faith you didn't have to have proof. I think you talked through what I was thinking quite well, in that you said that religious experience doesn't need empirical evidence to be accepted by the person experiencing the, um, experience. I absolutely don't believe that someone "chooses" faith without experience - in fact as far as I'm concerned nothing could be further from the truth. My experience of faith has been that I started believing what my parents believed, then what I was told at church, then this began to be modified as I experienced other thoughts, writings etc.
What I meant by saying that faith doesn't require proof was that in many religions, certainly Abrahamic, there's a big deal put on people who believe without evidence. Let's not get into scripture-slinging, but I thought the reason Abraham was so revered was because he was ready to kill his son for faith. Or that Thomas was kind of ridiculed because he didn't believe the resurrection until he actually saw Jesus. Or that the Catholic Church (MP's BFFs) has tried for so long to suppress scientific reasoning. Islam was very different for a long time in that science was seen as being very worthy; I think that's changed somewhat lately.
What I meant was that by starting to try to prove religious things (Noah's Ark, an omnipotent creator) using scientific means, religious types such as the Discovery Institute are shooting themselves in the foot. They really don't have the scientific tools to do these things, and they are being forced to stretch and warp science to do it. It doesn't help their case.
Thank you JOhnieB
Thank you, JCF.
yes, it IS all about sex. How do you think natural selection happens? (A) survival and (B) reproductive fitness and (C) mate preference.
Trust me, breeding bettas (which I have done), one becomes very aware of mate preference. Just ask one of my male (AIR BREATHING, MP) bettas, whose amorous advances and elegant bubble nest were rejected by a female who made her opinion very clear by ripping out one of his tail rays.
It's only silly humans who pathologize sex.
IT
IT, I'm not talking "neoconstructivism," (I'm too old for neo-anything). That's cognitive learning theory. I'm talking old school philosophy. A "myth" from that perspective is not something that is false or unverifiable. A "myth" can be any one of the kind of paradigms described by Thomas Kuhn with all kinds of empirical evidence to back it up, and may or may not be "true." We all operate under all sorts of "myths" daily, whether we usually inhabit the laboratory or the sanctuary. I think MP's whole point here was that there are kinds of orthodoxy that rule science just as they do religion. Not saying that you're one of the dogmatists; just saying that dogma is not limited to religion.
Andrew, thank you for going further with this. Yes, now I see what you mean about "proof" that God exists in the context of something like the Discovery Institute. That kind of thing does seem rather pointless.
What strikes me as strange is the notion that religion must serve as an explanation for how the world works. Granted it has in the past, although I wonder whether our view of that is somewhat distorted by the bias we now have towards empirical science. While belief in miracles, and in that sense the supernatural, certainly has been at the heart of most religious traditions, I'm not sure that people have always considered them as the way they went about "explaining" the world around them in the same way that science explains it to us. Yes, religion did explain things, and no doubt curiosity about how things work has been characteristic of humans for quite some time, but I suspect that religion was more something that permeated life, not something one thought so much about as providing an explanation for it all. I think that kind of attitude requires the beginning of a scientific frame of mind, a kind of arms length approach and some degree of dis-enchantment (I think Charles Taylor's recent book, A Secular Age, speaks to this).
I guess I never have viewed Scripture as setting up a series of tests regarding belief in the supernatural, but I readily admit I'm a bit out of my element there as far as taking a long view of it. The instances you cite -- Abraham and Thomas -- I don't know. At the very least, with Abraham, it was not a question of whether God existed or whether Issac would be spared, but rather was trust that God knew what he was doing and a desire or compulsion to be faithful to his commands. Thomas is more amenable to that perspective but even there I've always been taught it had more to do with telling people they should trust what they know already, in Thomas's case what he could see with his own eyes but nevertheless had to touch the wounds -- and Jesus responded with great compassion to his need.
Be that as it may, I guess I've listened to sermons for so long about faith as faithfulness, as turning one's life over to God, to commit to following Christ, etc., that I guess I've never taken any of it as having anything to do with conceptualizing God in a certain way, in deciding whether and what the supernatural is, in explaining anything to do with the mechanics of the universe or how or why one event or experience seems to follow another. I realize that religion does serve that purpose for some, but it strikes me as entirely irrelevant (sorry Grace, if you're listening). Again, faith is what you give your life for -- no guarantees, no certainty, only the felt embrace of God and trust that his purposes will prevail.
What puzzles me most is this:
"What I meant here was that someone with a religious worldview prefers to have a religious-type explanation, someone with a scientific worldview tends towards a scientific explanation of what is being discussed, and because these are different ways of speaking it's very hard to come to consensus on things, as we are all finding"
That I just don't get. I do not understand why one needs an explanation at all, one that falls in one category or the other, or one that most people can agree on. Maybe I'm just lacking the "J" thing (as in Meyers Briggs -- FWIW I'm an INTP). I'd much rather play with many different possibilities and alternative "world views" and suspend my judgment. In fact, I can't imagine why anyone would not want to freely traverse from one to another, compare, contrast, take one view off and on (maybe like hats or scarves?). But, well, I've never professed to be normal.
Anyway, I don't think we fundamentally disagree in the sense that I agree that one shouldn't mix things up. In other words, when sorting through a scientific understanding, you've got to first follow the rules of both the discipline and the paradigm before you can step out of it and seriously question it. Or so I've always assumed. There's a good think over at http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_index.html
where one of the scientists talks about the problem of new people in his field not bothering to do that and the confusion it causes.
Alas, I can't seem to keep it short on this topic, either.
Oh, come on, you guys, we have nearly one hundred comments on this thread; we can do it with a little more nonsense!
Well, I've got plenty of nonsense to share. Do you really want more?
"Wittgenstein evidently thinks that the surest defense for religion is to place it off limits to canons of scientific or historical objectivity, because it goes without saying that religious beliefs are ludicrous when measured by such canons ("if this [rationalist apologetics] is religious belief, then it's all superstition.") And in his appreciative assessments of Christian dogmas such as the Resurrection, the Last Judgment, and the Trinity, there is reason to wonder whether, for Wittgenstein, the pragmatic use of such dogmas is their whole meaning and point:"
to be continued
page 2
"If someone who believes in God looks round and asks "Where does everything I see come from?", he is not craving for a (causal) explanation; and his question gets its point from being the expression of a certain craving....the words you utter or what you think as you utter them are not what matters, so much as the difference they make at various points in your life. How do I know that two people mean the same when each says he believes in God? And just the same goes for belief in the Trinity....Practice gives the words their sense."16
[Internal quote from Wittgenstein]
to be continued
page 3
Again, these remarks suggest a (merely) pragmatic defense of religion, which cherishes the place religion plays in culture and in giving an individual life meaning but which is indifferent to the question of whether religious beliefs are true. Wittgenstein's remarks seem pervaded by a great fear that to consider the objective truth of religious beliefs is inevitably to misunderstand them, to rob them of what is truly vital, namely their pragmatic value. But if philosophy is to be true to Wittgenstein's dictum of leaving everything as it is,17 that is, of confining its activity to describing language games rather than attempting an etic reconstruction of them, then we cannot discount or disregard the believer's own commitment to the objectivity of her beliefs, even if this objectivity is not reducible to that of the physical sciences. Is there a way to claim religious beliefs as objective without robbing belief of its service in the believer's life or making scientific method the standard of objectivity?"
From "USING A PICTURE": WITTGENSTEIN AND BYZANTINE ICONOGRAPHY1
Latzer, Michael
Encounter, Summer 2005
link here for the rest of the article and the "answer" to the question.
Andrew
I have made it very clear from the post onwards that the missing thing does not have to be God although, personally, I would be over the moon if it was. What I said was the missing thing appears (and only APPEARS) to have intelligence.
Seev is right. He understands the numbers thing. That is why I pointed out earlier that the multiverse scenario is a possible answer that would allow the (almost) impossible to have happened in our universe.
MP - Thank you for calling me a belligerent tosser (I assume that was aimed at me, given the rest of your comment). I always appreciate demonstrations of grace in another.
Let me give you a counter-example to help with my point. The giraffe has a nerve 20 feet long that controls its tongue. This nerve could be 1 foot long if it took a direct path, but instead it hooks under the same neck bone it commonly does in mammals, which obviously in a giraffe is quite a way from its mouth.
I assert, therefore, that it is mathematically (almost) impossible for any intelligence powerful enough to significantly direct evolution to make such an obvious design error. Hence, any assertion that such an intelligence exists is baseless.
Note that I don't believe the above assertion is correct, but it's every bit as valid as the one you're making.
Duck-Billed Platypus anyone? Or does God just get stoned once in a while?
Verloren, don't worry, beligerent tosser is quite mild hereabouts, almost a term of endearment.
A little more nonsense - "see also - West Virginia" and I might add Elkton Maryland, to where at a very narrow point in time huge throngs of West Virginians removed themselves, giving Elkton the nickname "The town where the family trees don't have any branches."
Sorry, Elktonites. Just a little fun.
As I keep saying. It doesn't have to be God or even sentient. I am talking about what is missing. The fact it is missing means I can't give it a label.
And, hey, you started on me first so don't play the martyr because I swore at you. Just swear back at me - that's far more manly.
MP - I fail to see how saying that you're using an argument from personality incredulity is "starting on you" - I criticized the argument you made, I made no mention of your personal characteristics (how could I, I know almost nothing of you?) If that counts as an attack, I suggest it may be you, not me, who needs to 'man up'
OK, if we've essentially ruled out the idea that whatever might be missing is intelligent, what are we left with? So far the only characteristic we know it must have is that it must be more credible to you than pretty well established maths showing that 7 millions years is long enough. On that I confess I'm drawing a blank.
theme - Don't worry, I consider it mild too. But also unnecessary.
Some people believe that the maths show everything is possible. Some people believe that the maths show nothing is possible. I fall into the second category. For example, I doubt very much if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe if the evolution of intelligent life is due to chance. On a larger scale I don't believe the universe is mathematically possible due to the necessary accuracy of some of the laws that allow it to exist. I expect I'm just as cynical in my science as I am in my more mundane opinions.
"Eviloution is of the devil."
Signed,
that "fundie creationist." (laughing)
I would like to help you out MP, but, remember, I'm supposed to be on blogger vacation for Lent.
And, hey, any association with me would, just, well, ruin your whole reputation!! :) What's left of it, that is..
Sincerely,
You know who..
"Evolution is the Devil!"
Signed,
Mama Boucher
I sincerely believe in evolution quite strongly. The overwhelming evidence points in that direction. It is a well accepted theory. And scientists don't use the word theory the way we do. A theory is not something unproven--a theory is something that has been proven over and over and over again. You might say the language of science is humble enough to always say there is always room for more proof. Always open to new evidence.
AND evolution is really not incompatible with creationism. As has been said a number of times, science has it's realm, theology or faith has it's own. The arguement is always amusing, but I've never seen the point of it. I can accept both.
Still, MP, kudos. Somehow you've goaded some of the highest quality comments reading I've seen in a very long time.
"Always"
"Some"
:~P
MP: "Because a fish can either breath out of water or drown. There is no middle option so no middle mutation would ever be an advantage."
So MP doesn't believe that amphibians are possible.
And again: "On a larger scale I don't believe the universe is mathematically possible . . . ."
And as I noted before, "The mathematical likelihood of any given individual's existence is infinitesimal; and yet the probability in fact is 1," and MP complained that I was misreading him.
Perhaps the problem is that MP misconstrues mathematics as well as science. Being an "avid reader of stuff on science" doesn't ensure that (a) you are reading the right "stuff" (cue e.g. David Stove on "Darwinism") or (b) that you understand what you are reading.
But that's perfectly all right: As we know, that's not your field. Your avocation may be philosophical speculation, but as TheMe pointed out, absence of fact helps that along.
So if one feels that reality is mathematically impossible, it's time to check your premises.
(And note that I am quoting MP's words to illustrate that I am in fact responding to what he "said", since he doesn't believe that I pay attention to such trivial details.)
Thank what goddes there be they we made it without that, toot suite.
"...the big bang, the explosion of a singularity infinitely smaller than the dot of an “i” from which space, time, and the massive stellar bodies supposedly sprang into being."
Er, um, this sounds suspiciously like the theory of orgasms.
questforright says The Quest for Right turns the tide by providing an authoritative and enlightening scientific explanation of natural phenomena which will ultimately replace the unprofitable Darwinian view.
This old dog smells ID rearing its head again... this guy has sprayed his little ad for his book all over the blog world.
the simplicity of earthly phenomena Oh oh, now I've got spit and dog biscuit all over my screen.
Whatever deficiencies there may be in MP's science education, he knows enough not to term evolution-science as "Darwinism" -- a dead giveaway that the writer is a troglodyte. Sorry, Quest, you win the booby prize.
MP: "Because a fish can either breath out of water or drown. There is no middle option so no middle mutation would ever be an advantage."
So MP doesn't believe that amphibians are possible.
That has to be the most fucking dumb comment I've read on this blog, since I started it.
Now, now. Language, language. Next thing you know we'll have virtual fisticuffs.
That has to be the most fucking dumb comment I've read on this blog, since I started it.
Mad props out to paul (a.)... I've been trying to get this coveted prize for over a year now... and I thought I was close on this set of comments too. Maybe the maths just didn't add up.
I was thinking it was more the comment along the lines of God finding it too terribly difficult in keeping up with all those evolutionary changes, and little details required for the whole process.
How can He possibly manage it all? (LOL)
Not being mean-spirited here, just incredulous, and teasing around.
Grace.
1 math + 1 math = 2 math.
Um, I hope that MP etc know that amphibians, such as frogs, start life as tadpoles, with gills, and metamorphose into adults, usually keeping vestigial gills but using lungs for breathing.
Some salamanders are in between, either keeping their gills through adulthood and not even developing lungs. You could say that they're a kind of transitional form (not exactly, but close).
I would put forward that it wasn't exactly a dumb comment if you look at it that way.
I would side with MP though in saying that it's OK to say that there are gaps in knowledge and we should look to fill those gaps. That's precisely what Einstein did when he was coming up with his grand theories (I just finished reading his biography). However because he was a scientist he spent years studying mathematics and physics so that he could be an expert and make an informed proposal about how to fill the gaps. Also because he was a scientist he looked for a physical answer to fill the gaps. That's not supposed to be a put-down to anyone here, it's just the way scientists are supposed to work.
One of the big gaps for me is how animals went from the reptilian method of laying eggs to mammalian internal gestation. I linked to a New Yorker article way up near the start of this thread which talked about virus genetic material becoming part of the host organism's genes, and researchers are suggesting that this may be a way in which these kinds of leaps in evolution came about. However right now it's early days I guess, so there needs to be a lot of imagination, theorizing, looking for evidence, adjustment of ideas, peer review etc etc. The point is that they look for physical evidence to fill the gaps when they come up with something they don't know or don't feel make sense. In the grand scheme of things you may feel that this is no better a way of finding answers than looking at something philosophically or theologically, but it's the way they work because they're operating within a scientific framework.
Again, hope that helps.
A solution to MP's maths dilemma:
A God of the Gaps is responsible for the creation of mutant jeans.
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